Participants:
Series Code: EI
Program Code: EI190004S
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00:36 We're back on the journey of Evolution Impossible;
00:39 an exciting journey where we are exploring 00:42 whether one of the biggest theories about the 00:43 origin of life is even possible. 00:46 I'm Dr. Sven string, and I'm glad you can join us once again. 00:49 Together with me today in the studio is Melvin Sandelin. 00:52 ~ Good to have you. - Pleasure. 00:54 Tim Turner. Great to have you back with us. 00:56 And of course, Blair Lemke, representing the young adults. 00:59 Good to have you with us as well. 01:00 And of course, Dr. John Ashton. 01:03 It's good to have you back in the studio. 01:06 And you know, isn't it amazing to have an expert 01:08 like Dr. Ashton with us as we go on this journey together. 01:13 You know, today we're talking about one of the most important 01:16 components of Darwin's theory of evolution: random mutations. 01:21 And I must admit that every time I hear the word, "mutations," 01:24 I immediately think, mutants, 01:26 and the picture of those turtles with headbands 01:28 who can fight with swords. 01:29 What was their name again? 01:31 - Teenage mutant ninja turtles. ~ That's it, guys. 01:33 You know, but seriously. 01:35 You know, the fact is that Darwin believed that we all 01:38 evolved through a series of genetic mutations. 01:41 We're all mutants of a common ancestor. 01:45 But tell us, John, what are genetic mutations, 01:48 and how do they come about? 01:51 Well, yes, they're where we get changes to the 01:55 genetic code, DNA, that are caused by some sort of 01:59 extraneous chemical reaction usually. 02:02 But one of the things, as I've looked at the introduction 02:05 there of those amazing creatures, 02:08 those tall forest trees, the hummingbird, and the butterfly, 02:13 all those different structures, according to the theory of 02:18 evolution, arose by chance in a code. 02:22 And one of the important things is that the code 02:24 looks nothing like the creature. 02:27 So for example, if we write the word, "apple," we write, 02:33 a- p-p-l-e, or if it's in French, maybe, p-o-m-m-e. 02:37 But that code and those letters don't look anything 02:40 like an apple. 02:42 But to us they represent an apple because our mind 02:45 reads that code and we interpret that as an apple, 02:48 and may even visualize that in our mind. 02:50 So the important thing to recognize is that the code 02:54 for all those amazing structures that we saw; 02:58 the tree, the birds, the butterfly, the flowers, 03:01 the plants, beetles, insects, all these things, 03:05 the codes to make those complete organisms 03:09 are represented by a code that looks nothing like them. 03:12 And I think one of the fallacies that people adopt 03:16 or misconceptions that people adopt is that 03:19 some sort of physical change, like there might be a drought, 03:22 and therefore a fish that was able to somehow 03:27 pull itself across to the next pond had stronger limbs and 03:31 over time evolved sort of a shoulder blade and arm system. 03:36 And that's how fish slowly evolved into amphibians. 03:39 This sort of scenario that's painted by some evolutionists. 03:43 We need to understand that the code is totally unrelated 03:46 to the physical environment 03:48 and is formed by total random mutations. 03:51 So it's sort of like if we take the word, "fin," 03:57 and we've got to now apply a mutation to it to make it 04:00 into the word, "arm." 04:02 But if look at the word, f- i-n and a-r-m, 04:08 they're totally new letters. 04:10 So those totally new letters have to arise by chance 04:15 in the code. 04:16 But the code doesn't know that it needs those new letters 04:21 because it doesn't know that that is going to 04:24 solve the problem. 04:26 And when we look at the probability of those codes 04:28 arising by chance, as we've already discussed 04:31 in previous programs, it's absolutely impossible, 04:34 you know, the chances of these random mutations. 04:38 The other important aspect is that these mutations 04:42 are pure chemical mutations. 04:44 Because some of my detractors have said at times, 04:48 "Well, yeah, Ashton is a chemist. 04:50 What would he know about this?" 04:52 But what we need to understand is that evolution 04:55 is underpinned by chemical reactions. 04:58 And these are chemical reactions that we call, mutations, 05:02 that can cause changes to the code. 05:05 Now, there are different types of mutations that may 05:08 involve, for example, replication of parts 05:12 of the code, or deletions of parts of the code, 05:16 these sort of things. 05:18 But if we're going to produce totally new information, 05:21 we have to actually produce totally new code. 05:24 And then that code has to work. 05:26 So you've got your DNA, you have got this string of letters, 05:29 A, C,T, G, and on it goes, and so the mutations 05:33 are where you kind of switch letters, 05:36 or combinations of letters, or whole words, shall I say. 05:40 Is that what is happening with mutations? 05:42 Is that correct? 05:43 Well, you can get that type of mutation that occurs. 05:47 And there are many different types of mutations. 05:49 So evolution talks about... 05:52 Well, textbooks talk about evolution occurring. 05:54 The most common examples that are listed in textbooks 05:59 on evolution are where pieces of code are being deleted. 06:05 Some become damaged, and therefore, 06:10 they're not operable in any way. 06:12 And so they no longer function within that organism. 06:16 And so, for example, Darwin's wingless beetles. 06:19 So the codes to produce perfectly the wing, 06:21 part of that code became damaged. 06:23 The wings didn't form, you know, properly. 06:26 Or it may be deletion for a pigment, or something like that. 06:30 So the mutations which are damaged, 06:32 or the DNA which is damaged, is that what the geneticists 06:37 would say is junk DNA? 06:40 - Is that where... - Oh no, no, no, no. 06:41 The junk DNA is DNA that they didn't really understand 06:46 how it played a part in producing the organism 06:49 in terms of genes. 06:51 So the so called junk DNA is really other codes 06:55 that they couldn't relate to any particular function 06:58 or structure at the time. 06:59 But we now know it's associated with switching on and off 07:02 particular genes that can be affected 07:06 by environmental pressures. 07:07 So one of the things that we have is, 07:09 we have these pieces of code, but we also have pieces of code 07:12 that switch on pieces of code. 07:15 And so, there's a lot of dormant code that is sitting 07:18 in DNA that has potential to be switched on. 07:22 And of course, this fits the biblical position of creation, 07:26 that when God originally created all the different kinds, 07:28 and the kinds are simply species that can interbreed in some way, 07:33 there was a huge amount of genetic diversity. 07:36 And part of this genetic diversity would have been 07:38 codes that weren't even switched on yet, 07:40 but later had the potential to be switched on. 07:43 And they can be switched on by simple environmental pressures, 07:46 just physical pressure or stress within the body. 07:51 Changes in blood pressure and these sort of things 07:53 can trigger the switching on and off of genes. 07:57 As can particular chemicals in the environment 08:00 and environmental pressures. 08:01 So it's a very complex system, 08:03 and the environment plays a part. 08:05 But all these systems use pre-existing code. 08:09 And that's an important point. 08:11 But certainly, gene deletion is a common mutation 08:16 generally responsible for disease. 08:18 ~ Right, right. - Yeah. 08:20 Yeah, as you said, incredibly complex. 08:22 And I just wanted to check before we go on, 08:25 did you have any questions on what John has described 08:29 in terms of genetics and mutations? 08:31 Yeah, I was curious, you mentioned that all the genetic 08:34 information is pre-existing genetic information. 08:38 Is that to say that there has not been observed 08:41 the creation of new genetic information? 08:44 ~ Exactly. 08:45 Now I guess, to get back to the mutation thing, 08:49 we can have mutations where part of the code is damaged, 08:52 and therefore doesn't work anymore. 08:53 It's very common. 08:55 We can also have duplication of little pieces of code 08:59 in another place. 09:00 And that is typical of, say, you might have people born 09:03 with an extra finger, or something like that. 09:06 And so, you can get different combinations 09:08 of pre-existing code being duplicated. 09:10 And that can have, you know, sometimes a beneficial effect 09:15 within the organism, but still the same type of organism. 09:18 Or you can have transfer of genes 09:20 from one organism to another. 09:23 So you can have genetic transfers. 09:24 So, for example, it's widely believed that the top ten 09:29 food poisoning bacteria that the food industry 09:32 has to worry about these days evolved since 1970. 09:36 And they have evolved where genes to produce a toxin 09:40 that was present in a bacteria that would not survive 09:43 in us because it didn't have acid resistant genes, 09:46 it didn't have adherence genes, 09:47 and so it couldn't survive in us, so it wasn't a problem, 09:50 was transferred to some organism, some particular 09:53 bacteria, for example, that did survive in us, 09:56 but it didn't have any toxins, so it wasn't a problem. 09:59 And so, you can have a little prior, a little piece of 10:02 genetic material that can transfer 10:04 across under conditions. 10:05 So that's pre-existing code for a toxin. 10:09 Then we need to... 10:11 A harmless bacteria now becomes toxic and it can survive in us. 10:15 And so, that's gene transfer. 10:17 But in all those cases, it's pre-existing code. 10:22 The big issue is, how does a new body part form? 10:27 That requires totally new code. 10:30 Just like the word, "arm," a- r-m, is totally different 10:34 code to f-i-n. 10:37 And it's very complex, the codes that are required. 10:40 Yeah, I just wanted to ask a question that immediately 10:43 pops up when you say that. 10:45 What does the theory then say, where does this 10:48 new information come from? 10:50 What is their reasoning of, this is where it came from? 10:56 Right. That's one of the major research questions. 10:59 That's what the government is funding. 11:01 Lots of research in this area to try and understand 11:04 how mutations can produce new code. 11:08 No one knows. There's no mechanism for that. 11:10 And this is a very, very important point to understand: 11:14 that people claim that evolution is a fact, 11:16 but there's actually no known scientific mechanism 11:20 to explain how the complex codes required to form a 11:25 new viable body part can form by chance. 11:29 No known mechanism. 11:30 And you can go on, for example, top websites like 11:33 the University of California, Berkeley, 11:35 go onto their evolution website and just google, 11:38 "big issues in evolution." 11:40 That will come up as one of them. 11:42 Scientists are trying to work out how the code 11:44 for new body parts can form. 11:46 And when we look at our biochemistry that we know today, 11:50 it's absolutely impossible, statistically, for that to form. 11:54 So this is a major stumbling block, 11:57 actually, for accepting the theory of evolution. 12:00 And they've done experiments, of course, 12:02 to try and elucidate this. 12:04 And Tim, what about yourself? 12:05 Do you have any questions for the doctor? 12:07 I was looking at Lenski's experiment with E. coli. 12:12 And you mentioned in your book that for E. coli to become a 12:15 different organism, so for example, yeast, 12:17 it's going to have to multiply a whole bunch of different genes. 12:20 And so I was wondering, well, how complex are the genes? 12:23 But also, if those genes weren't to be expressed, 12:26 could an E. coli just copy and copy genes until it 12:30 had about 6000 genes, until something got switched on and 12:34 sort of changed it? 12:35 Or is that impossible? 12:37 Yes, the issue is that they are totally different genes. 12:40 So just duplicating genes isn't going to do it. 12:42 Just duplicating genetic material. 12:44 So if we go from a bacterium to a yeast, 12:48 for example, we've got a huge amount of, 12:51 you know, increased genetic code. 12:53 Say, E. coli about 4.5 million bases 12:59 to about 7.5 million bases, no, about 12 million bases 13:04 in a yeast. 13:05 So we've got another 7.5 million bases that have got to form. 13:09 So it's 7.5 million letters of code. 13:12 That's an enormous amount of code. 13:14 And what we've got in yeast, we've got organisms that 13:17 can have, you know, sexual reproduction. 13:20 They've got a nucleus, where bacteria doesn't have a nucleus. 13:23 There's a whole lot of different biochemistry, 13:26 biochemical machines involved. 13:28 And that requires totally new code to make those machines. 13:32 You just can't duplicate existing code. 13:34 Or the probability of existing code being duplicated 13:37 in such a way that it can produce that meaningful code 13:40 is statistically impossible. 13:44 Absolutely impossible. 13:45 And I'll use that word, "absolutely," 13:46 in its absolute sense. 13:48 It's absolutely impossible. 13:49 So in your book, you talk about three different 13:51 types of evolution; 13:53 type one, type two, type three, 13:55 and how it relates to mutation. 13:58 So maybe if you could just walk through that with us 14:01 just so we get a clear picture of what those 14:03 different types are. 14:04 Yes, so type one evolution mentioned is the common 14:08 evolution referred to in the book where you have 14:10 deletion of information. 14:12 And that's very common. 14:14 ~ That's the first type, yes? - Yes, that's the first type. 14:15 So the second type is where you have, for example, 14:19 transfer of existing code to a new organism 14:23 or duplication of existing code. 14:26 That type is... 14:27 But type three evolution is where you have a completely 14:31 new type of code form that produces a new body part. 14:35 And that's never been observed. 14:37 No one has observed the evolution of a 14:40 new type of animal. 14:41 Now people argue, okay, you can have a definition 14:44 of a new type of species, but then we get into, you know, 14:46 what is a new type of species? 14:48 So I prefer to say, a new type of body part. 14:51 And it's fascinating that in some of the recent research 14:54 papers that are coming out now there in reading publications, 14:58 we find them talking about, nature somehow learned 15:03 how to make this new type of organism 15:06 or make this new type of connection. 15:08 So it's a real personification of nature in many ways. 15:11 Yes, yes, yes. 15:13 And I think the reason is that they recognize that these 15:16 codes, well they're huge codes. 15:20 And as I've said, they look nothing like the structures. 15:22 But what we're observing in nature is these, 15:26 like you saw in your hummingbird, you've got this 15:28 creature that can perform all these amazing feats that 15:32 has so many different body parts in it to achieve that. 15:35 And human biochemistry, when we look at, you know, 15:38 biochemistry textbooks are typically this think. 15:42 You know, explaining all the biochemical reactions 15:44 for the amazing biochemistry taking on in us. 15:48 But when we look at just little simple, like cells in plants and 15:51 this sort of thing, they have amazing biochemistry as well. 15:54 We've got molecular machines like photosystem two 15:57 that actually is a system that takes light photons 16:03 and concentrates it and splits water into hydrogen, 16:09 active hydrogen, and oxygen. 16:11 The oxygen is released and that active hydrogen 16:14 is combined with carbon dioxide that the plant has absorbed 16:17 to produce sugars and starches and cellulose; the food. 16:21 So we have... 16:23 And really, this structure of photosystem two that uses 16:26 unique elements like manganese, and so forth, has only 16:30 recently been structures, a little molecular machine, 16:34 and we still don't know how the water molecules are combined. 16:37 Because what happens is the machine holds two water 16:40 molecules and then zaps it with the energy from four photons 16:44 that it collected through the green chlorophyll. 16:50 ~ No, five, not three, but four. - Yeah. 16:52 And again, it has just the right energy to split the water 16:57 into hydrogen and oxygen, and the oxygen comes out. 17:00 And when we think about it, we think of a plant or leaf, 17:03 we just pick it and mow it with our lawn mower, 17:06 and this sort of thing, all this amazing biochemistry 17:09 is going on in there at that time. 17:11 And those machines are just a powerful evidence 17:16 of a unique designer. 17:17 We've got top electrical engineers in the world, 17:19 you're an electrical engineer, and we haven't designed 17:24 anything that cool. 17:25 And what's more is that it is self-reproducing as well. 17:29 We don't have self-reproducing solar panels on our roof, 17:33 you know, that we can harness the electricity from. 17:35 You know, we've got to have them made in factories and so forth. 17:38 And that's the result of lots of engineers. 17:40 And yet, we are expecting that random mutations 17:43 produced a code written using the letters, 17:47 well, the chemicals represented by the letters A, C, T, and G, 17:50 that can produce a machine like that. 17:52 Or the bacterial flagellum, you know, this little mini 17:57 projector sort of thing. 17:58 ~ You're making me feel very humble here as an engineer. 18:01 It's an amazing gene. 18:02 But you know, the question is this: 18:04 We have observed living organisms undergo mutations. 18:11 So the bacteria, E. coli, we have observed it. 18:18 So my question is, as we've seen them mutating, 18:21 what has happened? 18:23 I mean, how many mutations have we gone through? 18:25 What has happened to those bacteria? 18:28 Right, yes, well earlier on you mentioned the Richard Lenski 18:32 experiment, and Dr. Richard Lenski is a researcher at 18:37 I think it's at Michigan State University, from memory. 18:40 And essentially, his experiment involved taking 18:43 twelve groups of E. coli bacteria, twelve populations 18:47 of E. coli bacteria, and breeding them through 18:50 lots and lots of cycles. 18:53 And the idea was to attempt to observe 18:56 what types of evolution took place. 18:59 And nothing much happened for a while, but I think 19:01 up around about 30,000 generations a couple of 19:06 the groups began to flourish 19:09 and reproduce more quickly than the other groups. 19:11 And they found that those groups could use the chemical citrate, 19:16 which was being used as a buffer in the selection. 19:19 Now what happened was, in the wild E. coli can use citrate, 19:23 but they had selected four E. coli that could not use 19:27 citrate so they could use the citrate buffer system 19:29 in their experiment. 19:31 And so, Richard Dawkins, I think in his book, Evolution; 19:35 The Greatest Show On Earth, uses this example of, 19:37 "Ah, the example of new code forming." 19:40 Matter of fact, I think as I read the book, that was the 19:42 only example that he could give of new code being observed. 19:47 But when they researched this down, what had simply happened 19:51 was that a promoter gene had been duplicated to be 19:56 next to a dormant citrate transfer gene. 20:01 And this was a gene that produced the right proteins 20:03 that allowed citrate to be transferred through the 20:07 cell wall, and therefore the bacterium to use citrate 20:11 as a food. 20:12 And so, that code was already there, but it was dormant. 20:16 And there was a mutation that allowed the promoter gene 20:21 that was a switch on gene, so it now switched it on, 20:24 so they can now use the code. 20:25 Now they've bred those through to 60,000 generations now, 20:30 and the rate of mutation is that essentially 20:33 the probability of a mutation in every part of the code 20:36 was possible during that time. 20:38 ~ And of course, Darwin... - But no new species occurred. 20:41 So Darwin was thinking after 1000 generations, 20:43 or maybe 10,000, we'd start to branch and we'd get new 20:47 species, new living organisms. 20:48 - We've had 60,000. - 60,000 with E. coli. 20:51 And in the lab they reproduce about every 20:54 30 minutes, from memory. 20:56 And so, we've had this massive opportunity. 20:59 And at the end of that time, they were still E. coli. 21:01 They hadn't even evolved into a different type of bacteria. 21:04 ~ Incredible. 21:06 And of course, one of the questions is, 21:07 does nature, does our genetic system actually, 21:10 are they prepared for these mutations? 21:12 Is there any anti-evolutionist kind of mechanisms? 21:15 And Blair, did you have any comments or 21:18 thoughts on that topic? 21:19 Yeah, I was reading in your book in chapter 4, 21:22 you talk about, I guess, anti-evolution mechanisms 21:26 that are built into or observable in nature. 21:29 And you gave some examples of these sorts of things 21:31 that are kind of there to preserve the integrity of the 21:34 species and to minimize the possibility of mutations. 21:38 I guess my question is, how do proponents of evolution 21:44 explain these sorts of mechanisms? 21:46 Well, there are the methods of repair 21:48 mechanisms that are there. 21:50 And often in some reproduction systems 21:54 if the mutation goes through and is a really bad mutation, 21:59 then the creature doesn't reproduce; it dies. 22:02 But what they're counting on is that some mutations do survive, 22:05 some mutations do get through the system. 22:08 But what we've observed in all experiments is that 22:11 these mutations generally result in disease. 22:14 Or they may offer a protection in some areas. 22:20 For example, they may give us a protection against 22:23 a certain disease. 22:24 But the down side is, we become more vulnerable 22:27 to something else in just about every case. 22:29 And most mutations end up in disease. 22:31 In case of human diseases, for example, I think the 22:34 John Hopkins library there of possible human mutations 22:40 caused by genetic mutations is over 10,000 22:43 different types of diseases caused by genetic mutations. 22:47 So we don't have improved humans being produced by 22:51 genetic mutations. 22:53 Sorry, go ahead. 22:55 So does that mean that we're coming to some 22:57 sort of extinction, genetically; like us human beings? 22:59 And what would the mutation rate be for people? 23:02 ~ Well, that's right. 23:03 Mitochondrial DNA is accumulating mutations. 23:06 And that is, of course, responsible 23:07 for our energy systems. 23:09 So once that gets really bad, we're going to be closed down. 23:11 But every living organism on this planet, 23:16 mitochondrial DNA is part of the energy system, 23:19 and it's slowly accumulating mutations. 23:24 And when we look at this, this is one of the reasons why 23:26 we know that life on earth can not be millions of years old. 23:29 Because we've measured the rate in which we're accumulating 23:32 mutations, and if we extrapolate backwards, then life on earth 23:37 cannot be more than about 10,000 years, or 100,000 years 23:40 absolute max, mostly likely can not be more than 10,000 years 23:44 because of the rate at which we're accumulating mutations. 23:47 And if it was any older, there would be so many mutations 23:51 that life wouldn't be working. 23:52 Mitochondrial DNA wouldn't be functioning any more. 23:55 So this is powerful absolute evidence 23:58 for the biblical position for a young earth. 24:01 Powerful evidence. 24:02 And that's called, genetic entropy, is that right? 24:04 Yes, a book has been written by John Sanford 24:06 on genetic entropy. 24:08 And so, he's a geneticist that worked at Stanford University 24:12 and did a lot of work in this area. 24:14 But the research in this area is published in the major journals, 24:17 like, Nature, and so forth. 24:19 Yeah, this is not... 24:20 But again, people aren't really being told that. 24:22 So we overall have more mutations in us 24:26 than our parents, and our children will have more 24:29 mutations than we have. 24:30 - So everything is running down. ~ Melvin, you have a question? 24:32 I'm just trying to wrap my head around this, 24:35 what we've been talking about. 24:36 What I get so far is that the theory of evolution 24:39 does not give any explanation for where new 24:42 information would come from. 24:44 Is has never been observed. 24:46 What we do observe is what Blair referenced to, 24:50 like anti-evolution mechanisms that prevent 24:53 or that keep the integrity, as you said it good, 24:56 integrity of the species. 24:58 That has been observed. 25:00 How does that not defy, you know, just science itself? 25:04 Like, the whole theory. 25:06 Why is it still... It's so upside down. 25:09 For my understanding it's upside down. 25:11 I think that's why at last, as I said, a thousand scientists 25:15 have come out and signed this, DissentFromDarwin.org 25:23 website and put their names up. 25:26 The evidence is overwhelming, it's impossible. 25:29 But one of the things is, a number of scientists that 25:31 think, "Well, we do see evolution," 25:32 what they're not recognizing is that it's evolution 25:35 that involves pre-existing genetic code, or the deletion 25:39 of pre-existing genetic code. 25:41 What they're not getting across to the students is, 25:44 hang on, we're not actually seeing the type of evolution 25:47 that produces new code. 25:49 And that's the evolution, type of evolution that 25:52 Darwin was talking about. 25:53 So Darwinian evolution hasn't been observed. 25:56 But it's this confusion, it's this semantics 25:58 that's used to confuse students. 26:01 And they just keep on pushing it and making these assertions. 26:04 But no, we have no scientific evidence 26:08 for Darwinian evolution occurring. 26:11 It hasn't been observed. 26:13 There's no know molecular mechanism 26:15 for it to have occurred or produce the evolution 26:17 for a new body part. 26:18 I think what you say is what I notice too. 26:20 And when people ask me if I believe in evolution, 26:23 as a Christian, and I say, "Well, that depends on 26:27 how you define evolution." 26:28 I agree, and as we can observe it, that within a species 26:31 we see things happening, like you describe in the book with... 26:36 What animal was it you referred to with the fur, the black fur? 26:39 Ah yes, yes, it's the mice. 26:41 ~ Yeah, the mice. Yeah. So we see that. 26:43 It's hard to say that that doesn't exist. 26:46 But when you go to something that has never been observed, 26:48 we can't repeat it, all of these things, and they're like, 26:52 "No, I don't believe that." 26:53 ~ That's right. 26:54 And it's amazing too, to think of all of these topics in terms 26:58 of evolution, and one of the most fundamental pillars. 27:02 The fact is, you may be wanting to dig deeper into this topic. 27:05 And if you are, I'd like to invite you to go to one of the 27:07 many online bookstores around the world 27:10 and you can actually order and get Dr. John Ashton's book, 27:14 Evolution Impossible. 27:16 It's a great, great book. 27:17 And you can just dig more into this topic. 27:20 It's quite sobering to think that one of the main 27:22 components of evolution: random mutations, 27:26 cannot generate new types of organisms. 27:29 The question is, where does that leave evolution? 27:32 Is evolution impossible? 27:34 That's the question we're asking. 27:35 And we are looking forward to having you join us again 27:38 on this journey as we go underground 27:40 and start digging for fossils. 27:42 And of course, if you've missed any of our past programs, 27:45 you can watch them on our website... 27:49 Till next time, we look forward to seeing you. |
Revised 2020-02-17