Participants:
Series Code: EI
Program Code: EI190008S
|
00:36 We continue our Evolution Impossible journey,
00:39 exploring whether the theory of evolution is even possible. 00:43 I'm Dr. Sven string. 00:45 We have Dr. John Ashton with us who actually wrote a book 00:48 called, Evolution Impossible. 00:51 It's based on almost 50 years of research 00:54 that he's done in this area. 00:55 Thanks for being with us again, John. 00:58 Joining us today is Justin Torossian. 01:01 Good to have you back. 01:02 Harley Southwell for the first time. 01:04 I hope you enjoy it. 01:05 And of course, Melvin Sandelin. 01:07 Good to have you back as well. 01:10 Last time we explored the geological evidence 01:13 for a catastrophic global flood. 01:16 But of course, there are still animals and people 01:18 living on earth today. 01:19 So all life could not have been destroyed in that event. 01:23 If there were people who survived, then there may be 01:27 other historical evidence for a global catastrophe like that. 01:32 So, John, you've been doing the research for a while now. 01:35 And we just want to know, where would you go to find 01:39 other historical evidence for the flood? 01:43 Well, this is one of the most interesting areas of my research 01:47 when I began looking for the historical evidence 01:50 for the flood, and particularly chronological evidence. 01:54 So I was very interested in trying to find 01:57 ancient chronologies. 01:59 And... 02:01 ~ And by chronologies, you mean dates for this event? 02:04 Well no, yes, historical accounts that listed dates 02:08 and chronologies of when events actually happened 02:12 that could be related to our modern calendar system 02:16 so we could work out the times. 02:18 And supposedly, there weren't too many that went 02:21 beyond the Assyrian period that we would have. 02:25 So once you go further than about 700 or 800 BC, 02:29 everything seems to get a little bit, you know, vague. 02:35 And particularly Egyptian history is quite problematic, 02:37 as many people have noted with, you know, perhaps centuries of 02:41 discrepancies there. 02:43 Okay, so you've got Egyptian, you've got Assyrian. 02:46 Where else would we go for this evidence for the flood? 02:50 Oh well, worldwide there are, of course, 02:54 flood accounts worldwide in virtually all the cultures. 02:59 And people that study anthropology and history 03:02 have made notes on these. 03:04 The cultures in South America, Central America, North America, 03:09 Asia, Africa, Australia, and Europe all have 03:15 some sort of account where in the past people were really bad, 03:21 and God decided to destroy the world. 03:25 And in most of the cases, probably more than 90% 03:29 of the cases, the world was destroyed by a flood, 03:31 there were only a few survivors, and those survivors were in 03:34 some sort of watercraft. 03:38 And so, this is quite fascinating. 03:40 When you look at the different accounts, 03:42 the description in the Bible is one that really 03:46 sort of fits the scientific, you know, accurate historical 03:51 perspective, in that the descriptions actually fit 03:54 sort of science in many ways too, the account there. 03:58 So we've got the flood account in Genesis, the Hebrew history. 04:02 Yes, that's right. As recorded by Moses. 04:05 And what would be another really good flood account? 04:08 One of the best. 04:11 Well, that would definitely be, the best... 04:14 What are you getting at there? 04:16 In terms of an account which kind of matches 04:20 what we read about in the Bible. 04:21 What's the closest match? 04:23 Well, if you're referring to the Gilgamesh epic, 04:25 is that what you're thinking of? 04:27 ~ Yes. - Okay. 04:28 Well, that one there is really more sort of a mythical account. 04:33 And you know, it's not really written so much 04:38 as a historical account. 04:40 But associated with that, we do have the Assyrian king list 04:44 that are recorded, say, on the Weld-Blundell Prism. 04:47 Now that is a more, sort of, historical type of account 04:52 that has been recorded. 04:54 And that records the flood as a historical event. 04:57 So that is definitely a more powerful, you know, scenario. 05:02 ~ Dr. Ashton? - Yes, certainly. 05:04 Because in chapter 8 of your book, you give some of these 05:07 examples like the ones you give now. 05:10 And also like in China, in one of the languages, 05:14 the ancient languages, that they have a symbol for the flood. 05:17 So it's really everywhere around the world that 05:19 they have some record of a flood. 05:21 But you also said that some of them are more mythical based. 05:25 Is it maybe, is it because there are so many of those stories 05:30 that might seem like myths that science therefore also 05:34 ignores kind of the Genesis account of it? 05:37 That it kind of thinks that everything 05:38 is therefore kind of myth? 05:41 Well, we can't really necessarily say that, 05:44 but the other accounts are certainly not very scientific. 05:47 Such as some of the accounts have the vessel as a cube, 05:51 which we know would not be very stable in water. 05:53 Other accounts have that the couple were rescued 05:57 in a basket carried by a giant fish, and this sort of thing. 06:01 The biblical account, when we look at the dimensions 06:03 of the ark, and so forth... 06:06 It was interesting, I was reading an article only a few 06:09 days ago, that in the 1850's they began designing ships 06:15 to roughly the specifications of the ark. 06:19 And that went on as part of the naval architecture 06:23 for quite a long time. 06:25 So the modern ship design is essentially based 06:27 on the rough dimensions of the ark. 06:30 It was a very, very seaworthy design. 06:33 So that's some of the interesting facts. 06:36 But some of these other stories, yes, are very crazy. 06:39 They're associated with some of the people that we 06:42 associate with Greek mythology like Zeus, and so forth, 06:46 these people. 06:47 And so, they're definitely mythological. 06:49 Whereas the account in the Bible lists a particular day 06:53 and a particular month, it lists the generations, 06:56 it actually names the people. 06:59 And I think one of the really fascinating things 07:02 that comes out of this that has blown the minds of 07:04 some of my detractors in this area is that Noah's grandsons, 07:11 there are cities named after Noah's grandsons 07:15 and great-grandsons. 07:16 Like, for example, Egypt, the country Egypt 07:21 is named after Noah's grandson, Mizraim. 07:25 So, "Egypt," is just the Greek translation of, "Mizraim," 07:28 that was one of the sons of Ham, one of the sons of Noah. 07:32 So that blows people's minds away, 07:36 that here we have a country that today is one of the oldest 07:39 civilizations on earth, and it is named after Noah's grandson. 07:45 And matter of fact, I have an Encyclopedia Britannica, 07:48 a very old one at home, and the Atlas, when you open it up 07:52 to Egypt, it's not called Egypt; it's called Mizr. 07:55 Even though it's in English. 07:56 It's an English Encyclopedia Britannica. 07:58 ~ How do historians and archaeologists and sociologists, 08:03 or anthropologists, rather, if it's not for a common 08:08 experience like a global flood that led to all of these 08:11 flood myths all over the world, the hundreds of them 08:13 that you mentioned a few of, how do they explain 08:17 all of these nations and people groups detached from each other 08:20 having similar, at least somewhat similar accounts? 08:24 Yes, I'm not sure. 08:25 Generally many of them actually, say that it reinforces 08:30 the evidence for the Bible. 08:33 And I think, the Bible as a historical account. 08:36 And we need to understand to that in secular education 08:41 today there is a lot of emphasis to try and discredit 08:45 any historical evidence that supports the Bible. 08:48 But continuously we're being surprised with particularly 08:51 more archaeological discoveries that are confirming 08:54 the accuracy of the Bible. 08:56 And of course, when we go back to Genesis and pre-flood, 08:59 what happened before the flood, then Genesis is really 09:02 the only reliable account that we have. 09:05 And one of the reasons I think we can believe it is 09:07 because the history after the flood as recorded by Genesis 09:11 is backed up by other secular history events. 09:15 And this is very powerful evidence. 09:16 In regard to that, though, you would think that 09:18 so soon after the flood with only eight people surviving, 09:24 but then all these civilizations like Egypt 09:27 and Babylonia, and all these countries forming, 09:31 how would such a population grow so quickly after 09:35 such a catastrophic event? 09:36 Yes, so in actual fact we have a genetic bottleneck there. 09:40 Because we have the, and for people that aren't familiar with 09:46 the account, we have the account that Noah and his wife, 09:50 and his three sons and their wives, went into the ark. 09:54 So they were the only humans; eight people. 09:56 And it's very interesting that many of these flood myths 09:59 talk about only eight people being saved. 10:02 And I think you mentioned earlier the Chinese one. 10:05 It refers to just eight people being saved. 10:07 And it's quite interesting that traditionally Noah was believed 10:12 to have gone to China and founded China. 10:14 That's one of the traditions there. 10:16 It's very interesting. 10:17 But genetically speaking, we have this genetic bottleneck. 10:20 Now this raises a number of interesting questions. 10:23 But I think it points to the fact that very early on 10:26 when God created the genomes in living organisms, 10:31 He created them with massive diversity. 10:34 So there was sufficient genetic diversity 10:38 in those generations that were only ten or so, 10:42 and in some cases more than that, 10:43 but there were ten patriarchs prior to the flood, so to speak. 10:47 So we're looking at only ten generations there. 10:50 So it's still massive genetic diversity there. 10:53 And just to digress a little bit, when we talk about 10:57 mitochondrial DNA, my understanding is that 11:00 we inherit our mitochondrial DNA from our mothers, 11:03 not from our fathers. 11:05 So when the two gamete cells come together, 11:07 the male mitochondrial DNA is actually destroyed. 11:10 So we inherit our DNA from our mothers. 11:13 And I understand that there are actually three main classes 11:16 of mitochondrial DNA; M, N, and R, from memory. 11:21 And of course, there were three reproducing females 11:24 after the flood. 11:26 Which is very, very interesting. 11:27 ~ Three sort of groups. So that's sort of a medical... 11:29 So all these little things, all these little factors 11:32 are pointing to the detailed accuracy of the Bible. 11:36 Now some people would say that the Bible isn't a 11:38 scientific textbook. 11:40 But it's accurate, it's factual. 11:42 It's not trying to be a scientific textbook 11:45 or explain things away in scientific terms. 11:47 It's just recording what actually happened. 11:50 And this is why it's so believable and so important 11:53 that people read the Bible for themselves and learn. 11:56 This is our history. 11:58 This is where we came from. 11:59 And if we go back to how the generations arose so quickly 12:02 after that time, I can't remember which one it is, 12:06 whether it's Japheth, or Shem, or Ham, 12:09 but they record the descendants, and there were about 12:13 15 or 16 sons that they had. 12:17 So if we say they had roughly the same number of daughters, 12:19 you can say they roughly had 30 children. 12:21 So you've got the three families, 12:23 each having 30 children. 12:25 And so people have done the calculations, 12:27 that after about 100 years, I forget the exact figure, 12:30 but you've got something like a thousand people or more. 12:33 And so, it's only about a hundred years later that 12:37 some of these chronologies record that that's when Mizraim, 12:42 for example, went down to Egypt and started Egypt. 12:47 And so, it actually is very feasible. 12:49 When you do the math, it actually works out. 12:52 Yeah, it's quite fascinating. 12:53 So, John, you talk about Noah as if he is 12:56 or was a historical person. 12:58 And you've mentioned how countries and maybe cities 13:01 are named after his descendants. 13:03 But do you have any other historical evidence 13:06 that he really, really did exist? 13:11 That Noah existed? 13:13 ~ That Noah existed as a historical person. 13:14 Well, there's so many towns that are named after his progeny. 13:19 And indeed, much of the history of Europe traces itself back. 13:25 So, you know, we've got Canaan, we've got Sidon; 13:28 so many of those towns in that area 13:31 were named after his grandsons. 13:33 Or even the races liken Javan, that was one of the grandsons. 13:39 Of course, if you look at Greek mythology, 13:42 they trace their history back to Japetus, 13:46 which is another word for Javan. 13:47 So it's the same. 13:49 So many of those tribes of Europe, when we look at 13:51 their own histories, they actually trace themselves 13:54 back to the descendants of Noah. 13:58 Their names are there. It's quite fascinating. 14:03 And not only that, in the Genesis account 14:06 you've got not only Noah's descendants, but also 14:11 his ancestors as well. 14:12 And it talks about them living for 800, 900 years, 14:18 and his descendants living for a certain period of time as well. 14:22 So how would you explain the concept that there could have 14:26 been humans living for almost a thousand years? 14:30 Yes, I mean, that's something that is sometimes raised. 14:32 Now it's very interesting, when we look at, say, the accounts 14:36 of the Sumerian king lists, that they lived 10 to 30 thousand 14:42 years; all over the place. 14:44 When we look at the biblical account, 14:46 the ages of the Patriarchs are roughly about 900 years, 14:51 or thereabouts, before they died. 14:54 And then after the flood, of course they drop away, 14:58 you know, quite quickly. 15:00 Now why does that happen? 15:01 Now it's very interesting, I came across a paper 15:06 that was published probably 4 or 5 years ago, 15:08 but I only came across it recently, where a mathematician 15:12 did an analysis of those ages that are recorded in the Bible 15:16 after the flood. 15:19 Because very interestingly those ages decay. 15:23 And they fit what we'd expect from a genomic decay curve. 15:28 So we know from our present day research that DNA 15:31 is accumulating mutations. 15:34 And so we expect for various reasons 15:38 the life expectancy to decline. 15:40 And it's quite interesting, the data of the ages, 15:43 when you plot the data of the ages of the people that lived 15:47 after the flood for the next thousand years or so, 15:50 they're decaying as per what we would expect. 15:52 And this is quite amazing. 15:54 ~ So what would be the reason for that? 15:56 Well before we get to that, one of the things is, 15:58 are these ages made up? 16:01 - Are they mythical? - Yes. 16:03 Now what's happened is that they can do, there are mathematical 16:08 systems that you can use that will actually 16:13 statistically tell you whether a number is likely 16:16 to have been made up or not, or whether it's a natural number. 16:19 And when they apply these tools to those numbers, 16:22 they come out that they are most likely to be genuine numbers, 16:27 and not made up. 16:28 And so this is again, where we are applying science 16:31 to the Bible, we find the Bible is again true. 16:35 - But this speaks kind of against the model of evolution 16:38 where over time everything should improve. 16:41 ~ Right? - Yes. 16:43 Where things should get better and better, 16:44 but we're seeing that everything gets worse and worse. 16:46 ~ That's right, we're accumulating mutations. 16:48 Not accumulating mutations that are beneficial, 16:51 that help us to, you know, metabolize and deal with 16:55 mutations even better, and hence live longer, 16:57 but we're actually succumbing to them. 16:59 Yes, so it's fascinating. 17:01 Why the ages declined after the flood, again, is open to, 17:07 you know, we really don't know. 17:09 If we look at the data that we have today, 17:13 there seems to be a cutoff around about 120 years, 17:17 somewhere between 120 and 130 years now. 17:21 People can't seem to live past that cutoff point. 17:24 And I think it is related to genomic decay. 17:27 Now why that happened after the flood, 17:32 we know from the Bible account that after the flood 17:35 people were told to change from a, well not told, 17:39 they were told rather than just have a plant-based diet, 17:42 which was the main diet prior to the flood, a plant-based diet, 17:46 after the flood they could eat animals. 17:48 They could eat flesh foods. 17:49 And we know now scientifically that flesh foods are associated 17:53 with reduced life span. 17:54 There's a lot of data out now in the literature. 17:57 At the University of Sydney, the Charles Perkins Center, 18:01 they've been doing research on this where 18:03 high protein foods, in particular animal protein 18:06 foods, reduce life span. 18:08 And so, this is data. 18:09 There's also an Ashtonian hypothesis, 18:12 if I may be bold to put that forward. 18:16 ~ Sounds good. Looking forward to hearing it. 18:18 Well, one of the things that is fascinating, 18:20 we have the Bible account there, 18:22 and we have this decline in ages. 18:25 I was at a conference a few years ago where they were 18:29 looking at cancer research and the role of 18:33 deuterium depleted water in extending the life of people 18:37 suffering both with cancer and slowing down 18:39 the rate of the growth of cancer. 18:41 And this is research that's coming out of 18:43 the Hungarian Institute of Physics 18:44 and the Semmelweis Medical University over in Hungary. 18:50 And essentially, at the present time our background levels of 18:53 heavy water are about 150 parts per million. 18:56 But if we reduce that level of heavy water in water 19:02 back down to, say you know, 40 parts per million, 19:05 to a much lower level, plants grow more slowly. 19:08 There are a lower rate of mutation to DNA. 19:12 And this is very significant. 19:14 And hence the application, possibly. 19:16 So my theory was that when these fountains of the deep 19:20 opened up, that maybe the underground water 19:23 would have been richer in deuterium. 19:26 And it spewed all this heavy water into the exosphere, 19:32 which then just reduced the longevity of everything. 19:36 ~ That science has been tested in a lab and verified 19:40 that it actually does have an effect on DNA. 19:42 - So it's actual science. ~ Yes, it is actual science. 19:44 But there's more. 19:46 We know that when we find ancient waters that have been 19:50 trapped, they are lower in deuterium. 19:55 And when we look at the ground waters, though, 19:57 they're much higher in deuterium. 19:59 And the reason why we know this is that during the development 20:01 of the atomic bomb, there was a lot of work done 20:04 to try and find the richest sources of deuterium 20:07 that could be used to slow down the neutrons 20:09 during the nuclear experiments. 20:11 So a lot of mapping was done in hydrology. 20:14 So just little things like this. 20:15 I mean, this may not be the explanation. 20:18 But what I'm saying is, when we look at some of these things, 20:20 there are scientific explanations that fit 20:24 the biblical account of the global flood, 20:27 and it being recent. 20:28 This is really exciting stuff, I think, in my view. 20:31 I know, Justin, you've got an interest in this area, 20:33 the ages of the Patriarchs. 20:36 Do you have any questions for John? 20:37 Yeah, you know, the Bible says in Genesis 1, when God created 20:40 the earth, that He separated the waters under the earth, 20:43 or on the earth and under the earth 20:45 from the waters above the earth. 20:47 And I've heard it suggested that if there was a layer of water 20:51 in earth's atmosphere, or below earth's atmosphere, 20:54 that it could have filtered out certain UV rays, 20:56 as well as created a different atmospheric pressure 20:59 on planet earth that would have extended the life 21:02 of human beings and individuals. 21:04 I know you said that ultimately we don't know 21:07 conclusively, but do you know of any studies that 21:10 may have looked into the effect of different 21:13 atmospheric pressures on aging or UV rays 21:16 being filtered out as being helpful? 21:18 Yes, look, these are scenarios that are commonly circulated 21:22 by Christians trying to fit the Genesis account in. 21:28 You know, I don't know whether water, I don't think 21:31 it does absorb that much in the UV. 21:33 I think UV will still come through water pretty well. 21:37 But my understanding is not that. 21:40 I don't believe that there was a water layer above the earth. 21:43 That's because my belief is, 21:45 that's where the firmament was created. 21:48 That's where the stars are. 21:50 That water layer has got to be somewhere out. 21:52 The scientific evidence does not fit a water layer up there. 21:56 And that was not where the water from the flood came from. 21:59 I don't think that you can... 22:00 The main water from the flood came from 22:02 the fountains of the deep. 22:04 Well you know, so you read about the oxygen pressure 22:07 was different, and these sort of things. 22:09 Well we know that there was much greater vegetation in the past. 22:12 And of course, the green matter produces oxygen, 22:16 and the algae and the plants, and these sort of things. 22:18 So there would have been perhaps slightly 22:19 higher levels of oxygen. 22:20 But this needs to be very tightly controlled. 22:23 If it's too much higher, then we're going to have different 22:27 rates of reaction, spontaneous type of combustion reactions 22:31 are going to be more vulnerable. 22:32 Really, the design of the planet is just right. 22:35 It's the Goldilocks planet. 22:37 But I think this concept... We can't know. 22:40 But we know that the earth was formed under the water, 22:44 and there was water above. 22:45 What that water is, God talks about 22:47 the stars were created in that. 22:50 So in my mind, that puts it further out. 22:53 But really, we need to talk about things 22:55 that we can know and measure. 22:56 And we don't really know that much about that. 22:58 But I think if we stay away from that, 23:00 we could be out of science if we don't know. 23:04 And John, one of the biggest questions that really fascinates 23:07 me is the chronology of the dating. 23:10 So you mentioned in previous episodes 23:11 that there have been extinction events 23:14 which have been recognized to be floods. 23:17 But of course, the Bible places 23:19 the global flood fairly recently. 23:21 So is there any historical evidence which supports 23:24 this idea that the flood happened only about 23:27 4000 years ago? 23:29 Yes, it's over 4000 years, 4.5 thousand years ago. 23:32 Yes, there's fascinating chronologies that 23:34 relate, for example, and I think one of the best ones 23:37 is that of Manetho. 23:39 Now Manetho was an Egyptian historian 23:43 that lived about or wrote about 270 BC. 23:46 So during the Greek era of Egypt. 23:49 And so he wasn't a Christian, or Hebrew, 23:52 and he was long before high criticism, this sort of thing. 23:56 And he wrote that Egypt was founded by Mizraim, 24:01 the son of Ham. 24:03 And that the dispersion occurred about five years 24:07 after the birth of Peleg; about a hundred years after Ham. 24:11 So that really fits. 24:13 And so there's a number of chronologies. 24:16 We know there are records that Alexander the Great 24:19 was given about 1900 years of astronomical records 24:25 that dated back to the founding of Babylon. 24:28 And so when we calculate, those records were given to 24:31 Alexander about 330 BC, go back 1900, then again you get 24:35 to a date about 130 years after the flood, or thereabouts. 24:41 We know that Greek history, their traditional history 24:46 goes back that the first king of Greece was about, I don't know, 24:52 1500 or 1600 years before the first Olympian in 1770 BC. 24:56 And again, when we add these dates up... 24:59 There's the Bamboo Annals in China, 25:02 which is the oldest surviving chronology in China. 25:05 Because a lot of their history was destroyed by one of their 25:08 emperors that lived about the first century AD, 25:12 the first century BC, roughly that time. 25:14 He had all their books and records destroyed, 25:16 so only a few survived. 25:18 And they placed the founding of China 25:21 at about 1900 BC with Fuxi, who traditionally was Noah. 25:27 So when you look at these things, 25:29 and I've plotted them out, you have that the ones 25:32 closest to Babylon were founded first, 25:36 and then you have Egypt, then you have Greece, 25:39 and then you have China. 25:40 And they're all within the biblical timeline. 25:44 And these are secular historical records 25:46 outside the Bible and confirm the Bible timeline. 25:49 And just as we head towards the close, 25:51 all of us have been really curious about this wobble 25:55 in the earth's axis that you wrote about. 25:57 - Dr. Dodwell was mentioned. - George Dodwell. 26:00 So can you just talk about it. What happened with this wobble? 26:03 - We're really curious. - Okay. 26:05 Now George Dodwell was a South Australian astronomer, 26:09 and he had noted that some of the earlier British astronomers 26:12 had reported a variation in the earth's wobble, 26:16 as predicted by Newcomb's formula. 26:19 Newcomb was an American astronomer 26:22 that first worked it out. 26:24 And he said, from that data there appeared to be evidence 26:27 of a massive disruption of the earth that caused a wobble 26:31 in the earth roughly about 4000 BC. 26:34 ~ Wow, that's amazing. 26:36 But how accurate that data is, 26:37 I wouldn't be real strong on that data. 26:41 But again, it's something worth looking at. 26:43 Yeah, all these things point to the historical 26:45 accuracy of the Bible. 26:47 It's amazing. 26:48 You know, this has been an amazing journey into history. 26:52 Did you know that there's so much historical evidence 26:55 for a global flood. 26:57 And if there was a catastrophic global flood 27:00 that destroyed most of the life on earth fairly recently, 27:04 where does that leave evolution? 27:06 If you're intrigued by this concept, I'd really encourage 27:09 you to grab the Bible off your bookshelf 27:12 or download a Bible app on your phone 27:15 and start reading through the first chapters in Genesis. 27:19 You'll be inspired and amazed. 27:21 Also, go to your favorite online bookstore and get 27:25 Dr. John Ashton's book, Evolution Impossible. 27:28 You've got all of the historical stories 27:30 and accounts right there laid out for you. 27:34 It's really, really fascinating. 27:36 Next time we're going to be looking at something 27:38 also very interesting: sedimentary layers, 27:41 and how fast they're eroding. 27:44 Could it be that our planet is much younger than what 27:47 scientists usually tell us? 27:48 Join us as we continue this 27:50 Evolution Impossible journey together. |
Revised 2020-03-12