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Series Code: GNFM
Program Code: GNFM000010S
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00:01 In the Quran in Surah 8:65,
00:04 it says, "Oh, Prophet, urged the believers to war. 00:08 If there are 20 patient ones of you, 00:10 they shall overcome 200, 00:11 if there is 100 of you, 00:13 they shall overcome 1000 of those who disbelieve 00:16 because they are a people who do not understand." 00:20 Does the Quran really teach violence? 00:22 We'll be discussing this, 00:24 so come join us on this edition of Good News for Muslims. 01:20 Welcome to part 10 of a 13-part television series 01:24 dealing with Christian and Islamic issues. 01:28 And today we're gonna discuss the issue of violence, 01:30 violence in the Quran, 01:32 Jihad groups like ISIS and Boko Haram and Al-Qaeda. 01:37 And whether this is a reflection 01:39 of really what the Quran is saying, or whether it isn't. 01:44 Shahbaz, welcome again. Thank you. 01:46 You've been with me for, this is program number 10. 01:50 And this has been quite a journey. 01:52 And now we're gonna get into the issue of violence. 01:57 And I'd like to start out by just mentioning that I, 02:00 I'm sure you remember where you were, 02:01 I remember where I was on the morning 02:03 of September 11, 2001. 02:07 My wife and I were living in Texas 02:09 and I still remember a friend of mine calling, 02:12 phone rang, I picked it up, 02:14 it was a friend named Costin Jordache, 02:17 that I was working with him and he said, 02:19 "Steve, you've got to turn on the television set right now." 02:21 So I got up went over to the, to the TV, turned it on 02:25 and there were the Twin Towers in New York, 02:28 and one of them was burning. 02:30 And then another plane hit the second tower. 02:33 The second tower was burning, the first tower came down, 02:36 the second tower came down. 02:38 And I'm sure you remember that and those images all day, 02:41 again, and again and again and again. 02:43 You know, we watched and slowly the drama unfolded. 02:47 And we discovered 02:49 that these were Muslim terrorists 02:52 that had done this terrible deed. 02:55 And that created, 02:57 you know, a lot of scrutiny on Islam. 03:02 So just, you know, fill us in a little bit, 03:05 what do you remember about that day? 03:07 And what were the issues that came up? 03:10 I was living in California at that time, 03:12 actually, on a one year assignment 03:15 with Adventist Frontier Mission. 03:17 And I was at my sister's when we watched television, 03:21 we saw that, I remember very well, 03:24 how I felt as a Middle Eastern Christian, 03:29 have someone from at least who's a Christian, 03:32 that oh, boy, Muslim, Middle Eastern Muslim, 03:37 some Middle East have done this, 03:38 and now you're automatically you're a target. 03:42 I mean, I was one. 03:43 I mean, that was not my initial thoughts. 03:45 My initial thoughts were the horror 03:46 of what I was seeing, 03:48 and praying for the people in those towers, 03:51 that God would save them. 03:53 And then after it all settled down, 03:56 I mean, a few hours later, I was thinking about that. 03:59 And then I went to Walmart, I remember, 04:01 the Walmart employees were all looking at me, 04:03 here's this guy looks like he's from Middle East. 04:06 And they were just watching me as I was passing them by 04:10 and so it was an eerie feeling. 04:14 Very eerie. Yeah. 04:16 And I mean, I think everybody would agree, 04:18 we know that those men 04:20 who did those acts that they were, 04:24 or at least they considered themselves 04:25 to be part of the religion of Islam. 04:27 Absolutely. 04:29 And they did what they did, you know, for Allah. 04:32 I remember in 2007, 04:35 I was actually invited to the Pentagon 04:37 by a chaplain there 04:38 to give a talk on Bible prophecy, 04:41 which was quite an honor for me. 04:42 And so I met, I went there spoke, 04:45 met the chaplain. 04:47 And I remember sitting with a chaplain in his office, 04:50 and we discussed September 11, a little bit and he said, 04:54 he just commented to me that we know all the men 04:57 that were involved in this act. 05:01 We know everything about them, we know their names, 05:03 their backgrounds, etc, etc, etc. 05:07 And so, you know, and this whole thing, 05:09 what it did was it really was, 05:12 you know, a big spark 05:16 in America's, 05:19 "war against terror". 05:21 And, you know, names like Al-Qaeda, 05:24 and now further on names like ISIS, 05:27 and there's other groups Boko Haram, and Hezbollah, 05:32 and different groups that are involved in. 05:35 You know, 05:37 open warfare against people in the West, 05:42 they want to kill us. 05:43 And the fact is that 05:46 they use surahs and verses 05:52 in the Quran to justify what they're doing. 05:57 Isn't that right? 05:58 Absolutely. 06:00 Well, why don't you share, 06:01 so I just read one a little bit ago. 06:04 I've read some of them in the Quran 06:07 and here's another one, 06:09 this is in Surah 2, it says, 06:11 "Kill them wherever you find them." 06:14 Verse, this is 1, verse 191. 06:16 And then 193 says, 06:18 "Fight with them until there is no persecution, 06:21 and religion should be only for Allah." 06:25 Now, why don't you share a few others. 06:26 And we'll just talk about this and look at these, 06:29 some of the other ones. 06:30 Let me just quickly say that radical Islam, 06:34 there's this, there's this willingness 06:38 on the side of many Muslims 06:39 that don't live at least the ones 06:41 that don't in the Eastern distance themselves 06:43 from radical Islam. 06:45 But I want to share those, 06:46 some of those verses right now from the Quran. 06:50 For instance, from Surah 9:5, 06:54 because the argument is that 06:58 the Quran doesn't admonish us to fight anyone. 07:01 But here's the verses, a classical verse at it, 07:05 I'm calling it says, 07:07 "But when the forbidden months are passed, 07:10 then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them." 07:14 I mean, to find somebody is a deliberate seeking, 07:17 searching looking for them. 07:19 So this is not in self-defense, this is actually going out. 07:22 And it says, "And seize them, lay siege upon them, 07:26 and lie in wait for them in every stratagem 07:31 of where there's war. 07:33 But if they repent 07:35 and establish regular prayers and practices, 07:39 practice regular charity, then open the way for them: 07:43 For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." 07:47 So there's clearly here 07:49 there is a deliberate going out, 07:51 seeking the pagans, 07:53 seeking for those who are not believers, 07:57 besieging them, killing them, 08:00 lying in wait for them, element of surprise. 08:05 And this is not necessarily in a war time, 08:08 this is actually getting up and doing it seems, says, 08:11 after the forbidden months are past. 08:14 And then in same chapter, verse 29, 08:18 which gets a little more closer to us as Christians, 08:21 it says, "Fight those who believe not in Allah 08:25 nor the Last Day, 08:27 nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden 08:32 by Allah and His apostle, 08:34 nor acknowledge in the religion of Truth, 08:37 which is as them as according to them, 08:40 even if they are of the People of the Book, 08:43 until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, 08:49 and feel themselves subdued." 08:51 So here in this verse, 08:53 the admonition is to fight 08:56 all those that don't believe in Allah, 08:57 that do not follow the religion of Allah, which is Islam. 09:02 And it says, even if they are of the people of the book. 09:08 So here's a verse that admonishes 09:10 and this is why we saw on television, 09:13 ISIS, murdering Christians and Jews, 09:17 because there's a verse 09:19 that actually justifies their actions. 09:22 And if those Christians do not become 09:25 followers of Islam, 09:26 they will kill them. 09:28 And many instances, these things have happened. 09:30 Yeah, I don't think there's ever been, 09:31 well, maybe there has, there probably has, 09:33 but it seems like it's hard to find a group 09:35 that is more vicious than ISIS. 09:39 I mean, you know, we, you can go on to YouTube, 09:43 and you can see the horrible things 09:45 that they've done, 09:47 and they, you know, they glory in that 09:50 and they claim that they're doing this for God, 09:54 for Allah 09:55 that He wants them to do this 09:57 and it's just, you know, it's awful. 10:00 Well, ISIS is a modern phenomenon, 10:04 in a sense, you can say, 10:05 but it's not the first time Islam has done this. 10:10 In the seventh century when Persians invaded Persia, 10:14 Persian historians have recorded... 10:16 Persians invaded Persia? 10:17 I mean, excuse me, Muslims invaded Persia, sorry, 10:21 the Saracen Muslims from the Arabia, 10:24 Arabic Peninsula when they invaded Persia, 10:26 for the first time, 10:29 historians in Persia have recorded 10:30 what happened and is almost identical 10:33 to what happened in Middle East 10:36 in the last few years with ISIS, no difference. 10:39 They took the women as sex slaves, 10:42 they sold them, they also killed their men. 10:46 And if they became Muslims, they would spare them, 10:50 if not, they would kill them and this happened 10:53 for the first couple of 100 years of the siege 10:56 of the Persian territory at that time. 10:58 Now, I've read that there's somewhere a little more 11:02 than a hundred of these type of statements in the Quran, 11:08 I read 109 or something like that, 11:11 that are pretty direct and straightforward. 11:14 Now, let's just clarify right out of the gate 11:18 that we both know 11:20 that there are millions of Muslim people 11:23 in this world that aren't like that. 11:26 So, you know, I've talked to some here in America 11:31 and I've watched, you know, programs and YouTube, 11:34 and I've seen Muslims on YouTube, 11:36 you know, just clarifying very strongly 11:39 that they're not violent people, 11:41 they don't believe in this. 11:43 It does not reflect their faith. 11:45 And what inevitably I hear them say, 11:48 is that true Islam as they see it, 11:52 especially Western Christians, 11:53 and I'm sure our Western Muslims, 11:55 and I'm sure there are many in the east 11:56 that feel this way too. 11:57 True Islam does not condone 12:00 or justify this kind of violence. 12:04 You know, I guess they have a, you know, a moderate view. 12:08 And this one man that I met a Muslim man, 12:10 he said, none of my friends 12:11 would ever do anything like this. 12:13 You know, this is just not part of our world. 12:14 It's not part of our life. 12:17 You know, and they, 12:18 you know, they fear for those that get radicalized, 12:22 and then get sucked in to that kind of life. 12:26 But that's not something that they believe in. 12:28 So my question is, to you as well, 12:31 you know, what do they... 12:32 What do they do with statements like this? 12:35 Oh, Prophet, urged the believers 12:37 to war and fight them 12:39 wherever you find them and things like this. 12:41 How do they? 12:46 What do they do with these, these statements? 12:47 Well, you know, they, they have to, first of all, 12:51 when they say that 12:53 the Quran does not promote violence, 12:56 they have to first of all answer the question, 12:58 why did then the Prophet Muhammad in his, 13:02 at least in the early years of his ministry, 13:04 when he was in Makkah, he was a peaceful prophet, 13:07 he only promoted the message by preaching it. 13:11 And he had very few followers in the years 13:13 that he was there when he moved to Medina. 13:15 And after his life was threatened, 13:17 and he and his followers moved to Medina 13:19 is at Medina that he got this impression 13:23 and the vision to use the sword. 13:25 And when he used the sword, he had quickly he had success, 13:30 and in just a few short years, he had thousands of supporters. 13:35 But the history of Islam is that 13:39 everywhere that Islam was promoted, 13:41 it was promoted through war. 13:43 None of the countries that became Islamic in history, 13:47 actually invited Muslims to come 13:49 and preach to us your message. 13:52 It was war, they went into Persia 13:55 without being invited. 13:56 They went to Eastern Roman Empire 13:59 around the same time, 14:01 in the seventh century without being invited. 14:03 When they came to North Africa 14:05 and consequently other places in Africa, 14:07 it was without invitation. 14:09 And it was at the point of the sword. 14:11 So this is Abu Bakr is the one that took the place of Muhammad 14:16 after his death. 14:18 And he wrote a letter to the king of Persia, 14:20 sending him commanding him to surrender. 14:22 And the king of Persia said, we will not surrender 14:25 and they attacked and, 14:28 but so we see a constant pattern here 14:33 through century a time that Islam is sleeping, 14:36 and then suddenly it wakes up, 14:38 then it's sleeping, then it wakes up, 14:39 then it's sleeping. 14:41 And it started that way, 14:42 it started with it was at first sleeping, 14:44 then it started to just basically attack 14:48 and ponder and takeover by force. 14:51 So again, how do non-violent natured Muslims 14:57 explain these statements? 14:59 Well, they cannot explain it. 15:00 They are trying to... 15:02 What they're trying to do, they're trying to marry, 15:05 give in marriage between their own expression 15:09 and worldview of Islam 15:12 to that which the Quran talks about, 15:14 therefore, they come up with ideas 15:15 that those verses are only for times of war, 15:20 or those verses are designed to help us to understand 15:26 that that was the way it was back then. 15:30 But it's not saying that, 15:31 it's actually there's a command to get up and wage war. 15:34 I've heard that the idea that jihad, 15:39 that you know, may, it may seem to be physical, 15:43 you know, a call to physical warfare 15:45 against the unbelievers 15:46 but one of the ways they look at 15:48 this would be jihad is actually spiritual. 15:50 It's a spiritual conflict. 15:51 It's not a physical conflict. 15:53 It's a spiritual conflict. 15:54 So the calls to rise up and go to war 15:57 have to do with warring against yourself 16:00 and warring against your sins and trying to, 16:02 you know, get closer to God. 16:05 That's what they say, but the verse is very clear, 16:07 you can't have a spiritual jihad 16:10 while you're killing pagans, 16:12 and non-unbelievers. 16:13 You can have a spiritual death, 16:15 that's not spiritual jihad, that's a physical jihad, 16:17 because they're actually killing the pagans, 16:20 they're killing the non-believers 16:21 that will not follow Islam. 16:23 I mean, so it seems to me that, 16:27 you know, that those who have a sort of a, 16:31 you know, a peaceful version of Islam, 16:33 which is what a lot of people do 16:36 they have that. 16:37 That they're really, 16:39 you know, they're doing their best 16:41 to try to kind of get around these statements 16:44 or to rationalize them 16:45 or to interpret them in a different way. 16:49 But when you really look at them straight out, 16:52 it's really not what they say. 16:54 And isn't it true that these are the very statements 16:57 that groups like ISIS and Al-Qaeda, 17:00 and Boko Haram and you know, the "radicals" 17:04 they use these quotes, 17:05 and they fuel them to do what they're doing? 17:08 And that they say 17:10 that the moderates are really apostate, 17:13 they're really not following their own book. 17:15 Isn't that they claim? 17:16 Actually is their claim and, 17:18 in fact, in many of the recruiting videos 17:21 of ISIS, 17:24 their thing was the message to the Muslim world 17:27 was go back to the book and read the book, 17:30 and see what the book says. 17:31 And based on the book, come and join us 17:34 because they knew 17:35 if the Muslims would go and read, 17:37 they will see these verses 17:38 that they have been called to war. 17:42 In my getting ready for these programs, 17:47 a friend of mine recommended a book 17:49 called Seeking Allah Finding Jesus, 17:51 this is an amazing book. 17:53 It's a New York Times bestseller, 17:55 written by Nabeel Qureshi. 17:58 And the subtitle says, 18:00 a devout Muslim encounters Christianity. 18:02 And it says over 500,000 copies sold, 18:05 and I read this book cover to cover 18:06 and this was a Muslim man, 18:08 you know, as you were growing up 18:09 a Muslim as well. 18:11 And this man, you know, was a searcher 18:12 and he finally started looking at these issues 18:14 and wrestling with these issues. 18:16 And at one point, he has a section here, 18:19 where he went to his house 18:21 and he went into his dad's library, 18:23 and he found a copy, 18:25 a full copy of Sahih Bukhari's nine volumes, 18:29 which is a Hadith, you know, you know what that is. 18:32 It's a collection of almost, 18:34 that almost all Muslims considered to be 18:36 the most historically authentic. 18:39 And then it says, it didn't take him long 18:41 after reading this to realize that the Muhammad 18:44 that he had come to know, 18:45 was really a filtered version. 18:47 And it took him about 30 seconds to realize that 18:50 as he got in deeper, 18:52 and then he says in the first volume, 18:54 the third Hadith told the familiar story 18:56 of Muhammad's first revelation in the cave of Hira. 19:00 Is it Hira? 19:01 It included the details I'd learned in childhood, 19:04 but there were more particulars that I had not heard before. 19:07 Instead of recounting that the Angel Gabriel 19:09 simply asked Muhammad to recite 19:12 what he was being given. 19:13 Muhammad himself reported 19:15 that the angel caught me forcefully, 19:18 and pressed me so hard 19:19 that I could not bear it anymore. 19:21 Each time the angel asked Muhammad 19:23 to recite verses, 19:25 the angel pressed Muhammad so hard 19:28 that he could not bear the pressure. 19:30 After his encounters with the angel Muhammad 19:32 returned to his wife terrified. 19:34 "His heart was beating severely." 19:36 And then it says, when he saw Gabriel, 19:40 his neck muscles twitched in terror 19:43 when the angel came back. 19:44 And then it says, when Gabriel had been gone for a while, 19:48 the Prophet was so depressed, 19:50 that he intended several times to throw himself 19:53 from the top of high mountains. 19:55 So he discovered from reading this respected Hadith 19:58 that Muhammad was actually, 20:00 you know, almost assaulted by this angel named, 20:05 apparently Gabriel, 20:06 when he first encountered him in the cave 20:08 and that he became, 20:10 he became suicidal 20:11 or, you know, he had to resist not killing himself. 20:14 And Nabeel says that 20:17 this was a different version. 20:21 But he read that, you know, in respected writings. 20:25 When I was a Muslim, we were all told that 20:28 when Gabriel visited Muhammad, 20:30 there was a very peaceful encounter. 20:34 And it was very nice. 20:35 And it was, it was a divine revelation. 20:38 But the Hadith that you just quoted 20:42 is actually the one absolutely the most respected 20:46 on all levels within Islam. 20:48 And they just, but most clerics 20:52 will not quote from that particular section. 20:55 And, you know, like I said, when you look at the statements 20:58 in the Quran, 20:59 you know, in the last one of our last programs, 21:02 I think it was the last one we talked about, 21:04 John 16:13, where Jesus said that 21:08 when the Spirit of truth is come, 21:10 he will guide you into all truth. 21:13 And, you know, it sure seems to me that, 21:17 that the Spirit of truth, of honesty, 21:21 of sober thinking, 21:23 when you really look at these statements in the Quran, 21:27 that they really are violent, 21:29 and to just say that 21:31 they're just dealing with spiritual jihad, 21:34 or that they're dealing 21:36 just with the historical context only 21:38 and that you know, that the Quran itself 21:43 isn't responsible for these groups like ISIS 21:47 that are doing what they're doing, 21:50 you know, it just doesn't seem to me 21:51 to be really a true evaluation. 21:56 Spirit of truth wants us to see truth to see the facts. 22:02 And, you know, this reminds me of a... 22:05 Of an encounter that Jesus had with Pontius Pilate 22:09 in John Chapter 18, 22:12 where Jesus answered Pilate in verse 36, 22:15 and He said, "My kingdom is not of this world. 22:17 If my kingdom were of this world, 22:19 then my servants would fight, 22:21 that I should not be delivered to the Jews, 22:23 but now is My kingdom not from here." 22:26 So Jesus Christ clearly taught 22:29 that his servants were not to fight, 22:31 he didn't justify, 22:34 you know, human violence 22:36 against other people in any way. 22:38 And then Pilate said to Him, "Are you a king then?" 22:41 And Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king, 22:43 to this end I was born and for this 22:45 cause I came into the world, 22:46 that I should bear witness to the truth. 22:49 Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." 22:53 And it's, you know, it's very clear 22:55 in the gospels that Jesus, 22:58 Jesus Himself did not promote 23:02 or justify or defend any kind of persecution 23:07 or violence against others. 23:09 Here's another verse in Matthew 5:44, 23:12 where Jesus said, "But I say to you, 23:14 love your enemies, bless them that curse you, 23:16 do good to them that hate you, and pray for them, 23:19 which spitefully use you and persecute you, 23:22 that you may be the children of your Father, 23:25 which is in heaven." 23:26 Amen. 23:28 What a contrast from the verses 23:29 that we just read from the Quran. 23:31 And I have to say one thing else that, 23:33 this Christ of peace, 23:39 He said, 23:40 you know, He came to save that which was lost. 23:43 And when you make a contrast with what we've seen in ISIS, 23:47 I have to add this as well that ISIS 23:49 didn't just come into existence in a vacuum, 23:52 you know, there was nothing there 23:54 and then suddenly, 23:56 no, there was reasons for ISIS to come to existence. 23:59 And we see that from these verses in the Quran. 24:02 And they did not just accidentally say, 24:05 oh, let's go do this in an opposition 24:09 to what the Quran says. 24:10 Because ISIS claims to be 24:11 the most faithful movement to the Quran, 24:16 which is a Sunni Wahhabi movement, 24:19 and that they believe that 24:21 they are adhering to the letter of the book, 24:23 the Quran, 24:25 and that's why they're doing what they're doing. 24:27 And same with Al-Qaeda, 24:29 and all the other radical movements in Islam. 24:35 So I guess, 24:36 you know, those who are non-violent by nature, 24:41 which is millions of Muslims. 24:44 You know, it seems to me that 24:46 they just really need to take a hard look 24:49 at these statements? 24:51 The vast majority of Muslims are not violent. 24:55 The vast majority. 24:56 If they were, if they were all like ISIS, 24:59 it will be horrible situation in the world 25:01 worse than what it is right now. 25:02 Yeah. 25:04 And then people have to ask themselves, 25:05 you know, is this really? 25:07 Is this really what I believe? 25:09 You know, do I really believe that statements like that? 25:13 Did they really come from God? 25:16 Or maybe something else is involved, you know? 25:20 And then take a look at Jesus, 25:21 take a look at Him and His life, 25:24 that He didn't teach any of these things. 25:26 Pontius Pilate said, "I find no fault with Him. 25:29 No fault in Him." 25:31 You know, there's another verse that I've been, 25:32 I was just thinking about in Isaiah 53, 25:35 which is a prophecy of Christ. 25:39 It describes his suffering, what He would go through, 25:42 how He would be led as a lamb to the slaughter, 25:45 as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, 25:48 so he opens not his mouth, 25:50 he would be taken from prison, 25:52 and from judgment, 25:54 he would be cut off out of the land of the living 25:57 for the transgression of my people, 25:59 he would be stricken. 26:00 And then verse 9 says, 26:02 that "He made his grave with the wicked 26:04 and with the rich in his death," 26:05 which is exactly what happened. 26:07 He was put in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, 26:09 a rich man. 26:10 And then it says, 26:12 because he had done no violence, 26:15 neither was there any deceit found in his mouth. 26:18 So it's very clear from this passage 26:20 that Jesus Himself 26:22 was no violence in His life at all. 26:25 And I just think, you know, what a role model, 26:27 what an example to us today. 26:30 And there should be no violence in the followers of Christ. 26:33 All those that follow Christ have the same spirit. 26:37 And it's true that if you look at history, 26:39 I mean, there have been Christians 26:40 who have persecuted in the past "Christians 26:43 during the Dark Ages." 26:44 And there's been a lot of persecution 26:46 in the name of God, 26:48 throughout history in different religions. 26:50 But according to Jesus Himself, that's not something that 26:55 Jesus taught that He justifies that He supports. 27:01 He said, My servants, you know, if I was of this world, 27:05 my servants would fight. 27:06 But I am not from here. 27:09 I am from above. 27:11 And I'm a King. 27:13 I'm the King of kings and the Lord of lords. 27:16 Well, we've looked at some of the evidence 27:19 from the Bible and the Quran, 27:21 and really, you know, it's up to you to decide. 27:25 You know, who you want to follow? 27:27 And who, whose teachings resonate 27:31 with your conscience 27:32 and with what you know to be right. 27:35 And I just want to end with, 27:38 we read yesterday in our last program, 27:40 John 16:13, Jesus talked about the spirit of truth, 27:43 guiding us into all truth, 27:45 and it's our hope and prayer 27:46 that the Holy Spirit of Truth 27:48 will guide your life now and forever. 27:53 We hope you enjoyed watching Good News for Muslims 27:55 with Steve Wohlberg and Shahbaz. 27:58 This entire 13-part series is now available on DVD. 28:02 To order from within the US, 28:04 call White Horse Media at 1-800-782-4253. 28:10 To watch the series online or for more information, 28:12 visit the website www.goodnewsformuslims.com |
Revised 2022-02-24