Participants: Yvonne Lewis & Jason Bradley (Host), Michael Carducci, Ron Woolsey, Danielle
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY017013A
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00:01 3ABN recognizes the importance of sharing the tools
00:04 to overcome temptation in every arena. 00:07 The program that you're about to view contains 00:09 sensitive content. 00:11 Parental discretion is advised. 00:16 I want to spend my life 00:22 Mending broken people 00:27 I wanna spend my life 00:33 Removing pain 00:38 Lord, let my words 00:44 Heal a heart that hurts 00:48 I wanna spend my life 00:54 Mending broken people 01:00 I wanna spend my life 01:05 Mending broken people 01:21 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today. 01:24 My name is Yvonne Lewis 01:26 and I have a wonderful co-host with me, Jason Bradley. 01:29 Yes. Yes, it's good to be here. 01:31 So good to have you, Jay. 01:33 He happens to be my son and my assistant, 01:36 so I have a two for today. 01:38 That's right. That's right, little nepotism. 01:40 That's right. 01:42 Oh, I'm so excited about today's program. 01:45 I can't wait for you to see it. 01:47 It's gonna be so great. 01:49 Some of my favorite people in ministry are here 01:51 with us today. 01:53 Coming Out Ministries 01:55 which is just an incredible ministry, 01:57 you're gonna hear all about it. 02:00 Let's look at... Let's introduce our guests. 02:02 We have Mike Carducci, Wayne Blakely, 02:06 Danielle Harrison, and Pastor Ron Woolsey. 02:10 Yeah. Good to be here. 02:12 Oh, man, I can't wait for the viewers 02:15 to hear what you're about, 02:17 because there's been so much change in society, 02:22 we know that everywhere you go now, 02:27 there is just, 02:28 there's a difference in values and media, 02:33 and we here at 3ABN, as you know, 02:38 we are devoted to 02:40 and dedicated to counteracting the counterfeit. 02:43 So we have truth, and we have tools, 02:47 and we have just all this wonderful things 02:49 that God has given us here, 02:51 and a platform for this wonderful ministry. 02:53 So before we get into that, we do have a song for you. 02:58 It's Tammy Chance singing "He will carry you". 03:13 There is no problem too big 03:17 God cannot solve it 03:23 There is no mountain too tall 03:27 He cannot move it 03:32 And there is no storm too dark 03:37 God cannot calm it 03:42 There is no sorrow too deep 03:46 He cannot soothe it 03:51 If He carried the weight of the world 03:56 Upon His shoulders 04:02 I know my brother that He 04:06 Will carry you 04:11 If He carried the weight of the world 04:16 Upon His shoulders 04:22 I know my sister that He 04:25 Will carry you 04:30 He said, "Come to me 04:37 All who are weary 04:43 And I will give 04:48 You rest" 05:06 There is no problem too big 05:10 God cannot solve it 05:16 There is no mountain too tall 05:20 He cannot move it 05:26 And there is no storm too dark 05:31 God cannot calm it 05:37 There is no sorrow too deep 05:41 He cannot soothe it 05:46 If He carried the weight of the world 05:51 Upon His shoulders 05:57 I know my brother that He 06:01 Will carry you 06:06 If He carried the weight of the world 06:12 Upon His shoulders 06:18 I know my sister that He 06:21 Will carry you 06:28 I know, my brother 06:31 I know, my sister 06:33 I know that He 06:37 Will carry me through. 06:46 He will carry you. 07:00 Thank you so much, Tammy, for that lovely song. 07:03 And how appropriate it is to today's message. 07:06 Don't you think, Jay? Absolutely. Absolutely. 07:08 It's really, really good. 07:10 So without further ado, let's get into our program 07:13 because our guests have amazing testimonies. 07:18 And I think we should start there, 07:20 and find out who you are? 07:22 What Coming Out Ministries is all about? 07:24 Or first, let's find out, what is Coming Out Ministries? 07:29 Wayne? 07:31 Well. 07:32 We've given the appropriate meaning to the phrase 07:34 "Coming Out," 07:36 because in I Peter 2:9, it says that, 07:38 "He brought us out of darkness into His marvelous light." 07:41 So sometimes people get confused with "coming out" 07:45 but it draws the attention of many 07:48 and we want to share with them that Jesus does have solutions. 07:51 He does have the power 07:53 to bring healing into each of our lives. 07:55 That's good. 07:57 Mike, did you wanna add to that? 07:58 Sure, Coming Out Ministries 08:01 really talks about coming out of darkness 08:03 and into God's marvelous light. 08:05 And each one of us totally identified, 08:07 in the gay culture our lives were not just consumed by it 08:12 but identified by that. 08:13 And so to come into a relationship 08:15 with Jesus Christ, 08:16 you know, was a huge sacrifice 08:18 but we've realized that that as God was leading us, 08:21 that what we're really coming out of was, 08:24 was something different 08:27 and more than what we'd even expected, 08:29 so, again, we realize now 08:31 that coming out is much more 08:32 beyond our identity in ourselves, 08:34 it's really in our identity in Christ. 08:38 Danielle, what do you think about Coming Out Ministries? 08:41 Well, I think that this ministry 08:42 is really relevant to today like you mentioned before. 08:46 There is so much confusion on the topic of homosexuality 08:50 and I think that, for us, 08:52 we suffered a lot of confusion in our youth. 08:55 We wish that we would have been given pointed answers 08:59 from the scripture 09:00 that would have helped us 09:02 to navigate through those very challenging times 09:03 but there was no help for us 09:05 and we really strive to provide that help today. 09:08 Oh, that's so good. Pastor Ron? 09:11 You know, in Revelation we see the, one of the, 09:15 the final message for God's people 09:17 is to come out, come out of her, my people. 09:21 And we lived in a culture 09:24 where many people desperately want deliverance. 09:29 We've seen them. I was one. 09:31 We all were people who wanted to come out of that life 09:35 realizing it was a life of bondage. 09:37 And so our message 09:38 is really a part of the gospel commission, 09:41 to take the invitation to every nation, 09:43 kindred, tongue, and people. 09:45 We have the gay culture 09:46 which is now a global culture, a global community. 09:50 And we are inviting God's people 09:53 in that culture to come out of her 09:55 and be a part of God's remnant church 09:57 and part of God's family. 09:59 You know, it's very deep 10:02 because the society is really pushing, 10:06 it's really promoting gay culture 10:09 on so many different levels. 10:11 And you guys are actually swimming against the current. 10:15 And as I know you know, let's hear your story. 10:19 Let's start with you, 10:20 Pastor Ron, 'cause you are a pastor, 10:22 you are a Seventh-day Adventist pastor. 10:24 Let's talk about your journey. 10:26 Yes, I've... 10:27 I have been in ministry for 25 years. 10:29 I pastored two wonderful churches 10:33 in the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas, 10:35 North Central Arkansas. 10:37 They are very supportive of what I do 10:39 when I'm away from home. 10:41 They realize that this mission 10:43 and this message is really of end-time significance. 10:48 But, of course, I was not always a pastor. 10:51 I come from a very destructive and a self-degrading, degraded, 10:56 and a self-destructive past. 11:00 Born and raised in a Christian family, 11:03 but I was sexually molested when I was four years old. 11:06 And it's amazing 11:08 to realize how one incident such as that 11:12 can totally derail a child that is not equipped, 11:16 is not mature enough mentally, 11:18 physically, spiritually, emotionally, 11:21 to process molestation or that kind of abuse. 11:25 And I grew up terribly confused about my identity. 11:29 And as I grew into teenage years, 11:32 my attractions were towards the same type of person 11:36 who had introduced me to sex in the beginning. 11:39 And so I went through life trying to mask that. 11:44 I dated. I had girl friends. 11:46 And I eventually, even married. 11:51 I thought, in my wisdom, 11:55 that marriage would be the solution 11:57 to the whole confusion. 11:59 And I like to warn young people today, 12:01 marriage is not the solution to any problem. 12:04 It can actually be the beginning of woes 12:06 if you're not married for the right reason, 12:08 to the right person, and with the blessing of God. 12:11 Though my wife was a wonderful Christian woman 12:14 and it was my choice to have a Christian home, 12:18 a Christian wife, 12:19 to make Christian babies, 12:21 you know, and we had two of those. 12:23 But still that did not resolve the issues 12:26 that I was struggling with, 12:28 that I'd had a lifetime of experiencing and fantasying 12:32 and with wild imaginations 12:34 uncontrollable from early childhood. 12:38 I ended up bringing my marriage to a devastating end, 12:41 as I was totally frustrated with God and church. 12:44 And, and I think this might be interesting 12:47 to point out 12:49 that I graduated from college with a degree in Theology 12:53 and with honors 12:55 and brought my marriage to an end, 12:57 because I had that Bible knowledge, 13:00 but I did not have 13:02 the right understanding of God's plan for my salvation. 13:04 That's right. 13:06 And that is a very key point 13:08 because we can know about God without knowing God. 13:13 And that was my case. 13:14 And who could you talk to? 13:17 That's the other thing. 13:19 Who were you, were you able to talk to anybody growing up? 13:22 About what had happened to you, 13:26 about the confusion that you must have had? 13:30 Who, did you have anybody that you could talk to? 13:33 I'm sure there was someone I could have talked to, 13:35 but I didn't feel like I could talk to anyone. 13:38 I did not have that kind of relationship 13:41 with my parents to even tell them 13:42 at the age of four. 13:44 I felt, you know, afraid. 13:46 I felt dirty. I felt guilty. 13:48 So... 13:50 My kids today refer to this as the olden days. 13:53 But in the olden days, growing up, in our church, 13:59 there was, I don't think any of us felt that 14:02 there is anyone we could really talk to, 14:04 there was no discussion, there were no resources, 14:07 and we struggled alone to the point 14:11 we became overwhelmed. 14:13 I know in my case, I became totally overwhelmed. 14:16 I have prayed for years 14:17 the Lord would take the gay away, 14:19 and I want to point that out 14:21 because many people pray that prayer 14:23 and God doesn't take the gay away necessarily, 14:26 like the apostle Paul 14:27 who prayed the Lord would take something away repeatedly 14:30 and God said, "No, I'm not taking it away. 14:32 My grace is sufficient for that". 14:34 And I didn't understand that. 14:36 So I got angry with God 14:37 because He wouldn't just take this away 14:39 and turned my back on Him, broke up my family, 14:42 went headlong into the gay life where I lived for many years. 14:46 But I had praying parents, praying friends, 14:50 and a God who loved me even as a prodigal 14:53 and He would not leave me alone. 14:54 Yes, yes. 14:55 And so eventually, 14:57 under great conviction and through, 15:00 I think divine interference 15:02 and intervention through a recurring nightmare of living 15:05 through the coming of Jesus, lost. 15:07 It caught my attention eventually 15:09 and I started studying, 15:11 this time not for my professors but for my own survival. 15:15 And I found all of my answers, Yvonne and Jason, 15:18 in the word of God. 15:20 Everything I needed. 15:22 Every answer to every question 15:24 I found by studying the word of God for myself 15:28 rather than for someone else. 15:29 And then I was able to develop 15:31 that relationship with the Lord, 15:33 that gave me that courage to turn 15:34 and walk away from the gay life 25 years ago. 15:37 Wow. 15:38 So when you prayed 15:41 to take the gay away 15:44 and it, it didn't happen just then, 15:47 do you feel it's taken away now? 15:50 Well, I understand now 15:52 that the prayer I should have been praying was, 15:55 "God, give me Your grace, 15:57 Your divine transforming power." 16:00 Because it's up to me to exercise that faith 16:04 and to exercise that grace. 16:06 And every time you say "no" to temptation, 16:08 you get stronger and that gets weaker. 16:11 And that's what I have since learned, that I can, 16:14 I have developed that habit for 25 years of saying 16:18 "no" to Satan, 16:20 so that that's not, not an issue anymore in my life. 16:24 I've been married now for 24 years 16:26 and we have 2 beautiful children 16:28 that are both now in college and I cannot retire 16:32 until I get them through college. 16:35 But my life today, 16:36 far exceeds anything I could have ever imagined 16:38 when I was living for self, self-gratification, 16:42 self-glorification, self-advancement, 16:44 self, you know, self-glory. 16:49 And it's a, God's way is truly best, 16:51 Father does know best. 16:52 Yes, He does. 16:54 You know, it's interesting because a lot of times 16:56 it seems like there is this invisible line, 16:59 if you will, that is drawn between homosexuality 17:03 and heterosexuality sin-wise. 17:07 But heterosexuals have to fight temptation 17:11 as well just like homosexuals have to fight temptation. 17:14 You know, if we have premarital sex, 17:17 that's a sin, you know, 17:19 that doesn't mean that 17:20 there is no desire or anything like that, 17:23 but you have to guard every avenue of the soul 17:27 and you have to constantly fill your mind 17:29 and your heart with the word of God. 17:32 This is something that, that we're trying to point out 17:35 through our ministry, lust is lust. 17:38 And it doesn't matter whether it's gay lust, 17:41 or a straight lust, or a food lust, or whatever. 17:44 Satan doesn't care 17:46 how he derails you or gets you off-track. 17:49 And I know in society, 17:51 the effort is made 17:53 to differentiate between gay lust 17:55 and straight lust as though straight lust is normal 17:58 and gay lust isn't. 18:00 Lust is lust. Yes. 18:02 Yes, I think that's a great point. 18:05 That, you know, sin is sin, 18:07 we tend to try to have this hierarchy of sins, 18:09 like, well, I do this, but I don't do that. 18:13 And you do this, but I don't do that. 18:16 I mean, sin is sin. 18:17 Satan can, you know, get you all confused, 18:19 but the bottom line is we need tools to overcome sin. 18:24 And that's, one of the things 18:26 I love about your ministry is that 18:29 you don't just deal with homosexuality, 18:32 you deal with sin... 18:33 Yes. And how to overcome sin. 18:36 You know, what's been great about our ministry 18:38 that we started five years ago 18:39 was that people now come up to us, 18:41 you know, in a church function or whatever and they say, wow! 18:44 You know, I'm not gay, 18:45 but you were really speaking to me with, you know, 18:48 our stories of overcoming victory that 18:50 people now are recognizing that it is not just a gay thing, 18:53 you know, that Coming Out Ministries addresses 18:55 but, you know, the whole blanket of sin 18:57 and overcoming. 18:58 Yes, let's hear your testimony, Mike. 19:00 Well, mine actually began with my father, 19:03 when I came into the church at 40 years old, 19:05 I wanted to know why, 19:06 I wanted to know why my earlier starts 19:08 were not same sex attractive 19:10 but I knew that I was different than the other kids in school. 19:13 And what was amazing, 19:14 because there were no resources in our denomination, 19:17 it was like the Lord started bringing in books 19:19 that I was reading, and sermons that I would listen to, 19:23 and even just presentations 19:25 that I would hear at camp meeting, 19:26 and started to show me 19:28 that actually this really began with my father 19:30 even before I was conscious. 19:31 So between the ages of one and three, 19:33 there has to be this transition of little boys 19:36 where they transition to the father 19:38 and they start to wear cowboy boots 19:40 and baseball caps like their dad, 19:41 and all of this is healthy gender stamping. 19:44 So, for me, my dad was somewhat abusive 19:47 when he was home, he was a loud Italian, 19:50 and so that was frightening to me, 19:51 plus the fact that he was in the navy, 19:53 so he'd be gone three to six months at a time. 19:55 And so when I needed that example in my life, 19:58 that wasn't available, or when it was available, 20:00 it was frightening. 20:02 So the term is defensive detachment. 20:05 In my defense, I detached from my father as my role model, 20:08 my gender role model, 20:09 and so the only one available was my mom. 20:12 So I attached to her. 20:13 I remember thinking, 20:15 from the time that I was conscious that, "Wow! 20:17 I should have been a girl." 20:19 And I would pray, 20:20 I recognized that God was there. 20:22 But I kind of equated God to my father 20:23 that He was arbitrary, judgmental, unavailable, 20:27 and so I thought that God had made a mistake. 20:29 So as many times as I prayed that I'd wake up 20:31 the next morning as a little girl, 20:34 struggling with transgender ideation I, you know, 20:37 Christmas and birthdays were miserable 20:38 because I didn't want a Tonka truck, 20:40 I wanted a Barbie. 20:41 I was dressing in my mom and my sisters' clothes 20:43 so, all of this identity issue began 20:46 even before I was conscious. 20:48 So I thought that I was born that way. 20:50 And as I started to go to school, 20:52 the one thing that I needed was male affirmation 20:55 but that became even more elusive 20:57 when the kids started calling me names, Sissy, Queer. 21:00 So what that did is that kept that bay still, 21:02 this identity that I was desperate for. 21:04 I didn't know how to get it. 21:06 One of the things 21:07 that psychologists talk about is how the sex, 21:10 that is the mystery of puberty becomes the attraction. 21:13 So I was totally identified with femininism, feminism, 21:18 and so I had three sisters, a single mom, 21:20 so I know everything about girls. 21:22 So then when puberty came, 21:24 the sex that was the mystery to me was actually my own. 21:27 This became sexualized, fantasy, plagued me, 21:32 held me captive, 21:34 even through high school there were many times 21:37 that even though I didn't want to be gay 21:39 and I didn't want to identify this way, 21:41 I still wasn't able to address the real source 21:44 that began with my father. 21:45 Then I was confounded by the kids in school. 21:48 So eventually, by 20 years old, 21:50 I went to somebody in the church 21:52 that I thought I could trust, 21:53 and I basically asked him, you know, "Can I talk to you?" 21:57 And he said, "What's up, Mike?" 21:59 And I said, "Well, it has to do with women." 22:00 And he said something so derogatory, 22:02 I knew that I couldn't trust him with my secret. 22:04 I feared what his response would be, 22:06 so I walked out of church that night and I said, 22:08 "If this is the best You have, God, I'm done. 22:10 I can't get my religion 22:12 and my sexuality to come together." 22:14 And so I went headlong into the gay, gay culture. 22:18 But that was a turning point for you? 22:21 To me, it was finally, 22:23 it's like, "You haven't been there. 22:25 You didn't answer my prayers." 22:26 And again like Ron was saying 22:28 I was praying for the wrong thing. 22:29 I was praying to be straight when what I really needed is 22:32 I needed to know how to claim the blood of Jesus. 22:35 And I thought that I had to come to Jesus all perfect, 22:38 and cleaned up, and washed up, before He would accept me. 22:40 So, you know, in my misunderstanding, 22:43 I kept feeling like I had to come before Him perfect, 22:47 before I would be acceptable. 22:48 So... 22:50 That's, it's interesting, I had to cut you off, 22:51 but it's interesting that you should say that 22:53 because I had a conversation the other day 22:55 about that same thing. 22:57 And, you know, if we wait until we're perfect 23:00 to come to Jesus, 23:01 we'll never come, 23:02 because we're not gonna be made perfect without Him. 23:06 Right. So, yeah. 23:08 So even in my ignorance, what was so amazing, at 17, 23:10 I prayed to die. 23:12 I just was done. I knew what was coming. 23:13 And at 17, because God didn't answer that prayer, 23:17 I just thought that He didn't care 23:19 or that I didn't have any value to Him. 23:21 So 20 years living in gay culture, 23:23 I thought, a monogamous relationship, 23:25 maybe God would respect that 23:26 that was the best that I could do, and again, 23:29 focusing on what I could do. 23:30 A monogamous gay relation? Correct. Correct. 23:33 But my first lover 23:34 that was about 11 years older than me 23:36 introduced me to all kinds of sexual things 23:38 that I wasn't even aware of that existed. 23:41 And within a few short months, I become a sexual addict, 23:44 for 20 years. 23:45 Unfaithful in the five significant relationships 23:48 that I had, 23:50 I was so far away from God and turning 40 now, 23:53 thinking to myself, you know, 23:55 I must have gone too far for God to even, 23:57 you know, care about me. 23:59 But I had sisters that were praying for me 24:02 and those prayers really came to me 24:04 at what I thought was a pinnacle of my career 24:06 and my life. 24:07 You know, I had a rich boyfriend 24:09 that was good looking and I had a career 24:11 where I was doing hair for television people. 24:13 And I just thought that I had the world by the tail, 24:16 but the Lord was able to reach me 24:18 through the baptism of my brother-in-law 24:20 who I couldn't stand, which is a story in itself. 24:24 So all of a sudden, 24:26 my boyfriend went out of town one weekend 24:28 and he came back, and I was baptized. 24:30 And I was walking with Jesus Christ 24:32 and as much as I'd like to say that 24:34 it was a, it was a decision 24:38 that I made to be an Adventist, 24:39 it was really more that I was accepting the invitation 24:42 from Jesus Christ, 24:43 and as I was walking in this relationship with Christ, 24:46 all of a sudden, 24:47 He stared addressing this emptiness inside of me 24:49 that went all the way back to my father. 24:51 And as He started to fill that whole, 24:54 then all of a sudden, 24:55 the sexual acting out started to diminish. 24:57 I told God, if He wanted me out of the relationship, 25:00 He was gonna have to do it Himself 25:01 and God took me at my word 25:03 and said, "I'll get right on that." 25:04 And within three weeks, 25:06 my boyfriend had broken up with me. 25:07 And I knew that God was working in my life powerfully. 25:11 Now nobody should have baptized me, you know, 25:14 but nobody bothered to ask me the questions. 25:16 "Hey, you know, what's going on in your life?" 25:18 And I stood up on the Friday night 25:20 before I was to be baptized, 25:22 and I was kind of underneath the wire with all that, 25:25 but God's ways are not our ways. 25:27 And His thoughts are not our thoughts, 25:29 and as He was walking with me, He didn't leave me where I was. 25:32 And eventually, 25:36 for the first time in my life to have that freedom 25:38 over the pornography, the sexual addiction, 25:40 and all of that, was just amazing to me 25:44 that God could do something so powerful. 25:46 And it's been a difficult walk 25:49 but the most fulfilling walk I think I've ever experienced. 25:52 Praise God. 25:54 The stories of God's deliverance, 25:58 you know, we all have testimonies, 26:00 everybody has their own testimony 26:02 that has a relationship with the Lord. 26:05 But it's so incredible to hear how... 26:09 And to see how, again, God has, and I always say this 26:13 on Dare to Dream tube, 26:14 but God has His plan and Satan has his plan. 26:17 And God's plan is to prosper you, 26:20 and to give you an abundant life, 26:21 and to heal your brokenness, 26:23 'cause we all have some brokenness in certain places. 26:26 And the enemy's plan is to just take you from here, 26:31 all the way down. 26:33 And as you get into all of these other relationships 26:36 and stuff, they just bring you down, down, down. 26:39 And before you know it, 26:40 you're doing things that you were, 26:42 you never thought you'd do. 26:44 But then God just reaches in and picks you up. 26:48 He says, "I've got you. 26:50 I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you a better life. 26:52 I have something better for you." 26:53 And that's one of the things I love about your ministry. 26:57 You show that God has a better way. 27:01 That's, that's what you guys do. 27:03 So we love that. Danielle? 27:07 Well, my story is actually different from my colleagues 27:09 in the fact that I didn't grow up 27:11 in an Adventist home or even a Christian home. 27:14 We didn't have Jesus in our home 27:16 and my parents were really struggling 27:18 in their relationship. 27:20 They weren't expecting to have another child, 27:21 so I was a surprise at that point. 27:24 But I was very happy as a child 27:26 and I was very loved in my home. 27:28 Unfortunately, my parents' marriage 27:31 really dissolved within the first five years of my life 27:34 and when I was only six years old, 27:35 they decided that they were gonna separate. 27:38 So, my, myself, my siblings, and my mother, 27:42 moved into a low-income housing development 27:45 in a neighboring town. 27:47 And it was there that I met a young girl 27:49 who lived down the street. 27:51 So she was my same age 27:52 and she was actually being sexually abused 27:55 by someone else in her life. 27:58 I found that out a couple of years later, 28:01 as a result of a conversation she was having with me. 28:04 But when we first met, 28:07 she was learning these things through the abuse 28:09 that she shouldn't have known about her body 28:11 at such a young age. 28:13 So she was exploring sexually on her own, 28:17 and with this person, and then she started sharing 28:19 that knowledge with me. 28:21 So I was very young when I started interacting 28:23 sexually with this girl. 28:25 I was probably seven or eight years old. 28:27 And so this opened up all of this knowledge for me 28:30 that I also shouldn't have known at that age. 28:32 And so these sexual experiences continued with her for years 28:37 and other girls came and went. 28:39 And this opened up a door for sexual addiction for me 28:42 at a very young age, not just with her 28:45 but also through masturbation. 28:47 And as I grew older, 28:50 I really started to start looking at the boys 28:54 in my class, not, 28:57 not in a way that I was really attracted to them, 29:00 I guess in fifth grade, you shouldn't be, 29:03 but I started seeking out the attention 29:05 of the boys in my class. 29:06 And I think that really came as a result 29:09 of being overexposed to the media 29:12 through television, and radio, and Hollywood movies, 29:16 those things were off-limit, those, 29:18 nothing was off-limits to me as far as those things went, 29:20 when I was young. 29:21 And my parents not really being available for me, 29:25 I gravitated towards those things. 29:27 And I think if we look at the media, 29:29 a woman's power is found 29:31 in gaining the attention and possessions 29:34 from the opposite sex. 29:35 And as a very young girl, 29:36 I started seeking out the attention 29:38 of the boys in my class even though 29:39 I didn't really have crushes on them, 29:41 but I wanted to convince other people that I did. 29:44 I don't know if this was solely from 29:47 just kind of taking on the persona of the woman 29:51 that I saw, that looked confident, 29:53 because I had no confidence 29:54 or if it also was kind of a desire 29:56 to look normal like the other girls 29:59 who did have crushes on the boys. 30:01 So this opened up sexual experiences from me. 30:04 As a young teenager, I started 30:07 interacting with the boys sexually as well as the girls. 30:10 Was your mom noticing these changes in you? 30:14 How was she dealing with that if she noticed it? 30:17 That's a good question, Yvonne. 30:18 Unfortunately, I lived with my mom for a few years 30:20 but then I moved in with my father. 30:23 And so my mom moved to Illinois, 30:25 she moved states away. 30:26 So she wasn't really a prominent part of my life 30:29 and my dad was working a lot, his schedule, 30:32 his work and sleep schedule were highly fluctuating. 30:36 So this was why I was left kind of to my own, 30:39 a lot, as a young girl. 30:40 So my parents didn't really, I don't think they recognized 30:44 these dynamics going on in my life. 30:47 But having moved away from Wyoming 30:49 where I grew up into the Pacific Northwest, 30:51 where it's a very liberal mentality, 30:53 and gay pride is everywhere, 30:56 I really started stepping into an idea, 30:58 well, maybe this is okay and I can live this way. 31:01 And I made a huge collage on one of the walls in my room 31:05 that was all photos of women. 31:08 And my father could see that and he is not a Christian, 31:12 and he took me aside one day and basically told me that, 31:16 he said, "It's okay if you're different 31:19 than most everyone and no matter who you are, 31:21 I'm still gonna love you." 31:22 And I knew at that point he was basically telling me 31:24 it was okay if I was gay, even though he never said that. 31:28 And my life really took a turn, I think at that point. 31:32 Not only from, from the acceptance 31:36 that I had from my father 31:37 but also just from the music that I was listening to, 31:41 that was becoming increasing rebellious. 31:44 I just decided I wasn't going to live like anybody told me 31:47 that I needed to anymore, 31:49 and I was just gonna walk out into the world. 31:51 And that was around the time that I came out as bisexual, 31:55 and I really think that as I started to place my identity 31:59 away from what the word of God said, 32:02 because I had been studying a little bit 32:03 the Adventist message with a neighbor, 32:06 when I started to, to put my identity 32:09 in what Satan was telling me, was who I was, 32:12 instead of walking 32:13 with what the word of God was revealing to me. 32:16 I really placed myself in a dangerous position 32:19 and I walked out into a very dark and scary place. 32:23 I can't really explain in words what that became, 32:25 in just a few short years, 32:27 I was struggling with multiple drug addictions, 32:30 severe emotional mood swings, 32:33 and anxiety attacks, depression. 32:36 I was dabbling in witchcrafts, so I was hearing voices, 32:38 and seeing shadows crawl. 32:40 It became a very, very dark and scary place for me. 32:42 And I lived that on the outside. 32:44 I mean, I had a Mohawk for four years 32:47 that was all different colors, 32:49 I wore a five-inch platform boots 32:50 that came up to my knees, I mean, 32:52 I was constantly in this character, 32:56 this persona, then often had devil horns or whatever. 32:59 I mean, I didn't believe in God or Satan anymore. 33:02 And I really took on this persona of someone 33:04 who is very dark and rebellious, 33:06 not just inside of my heart but on the outside as well. 33:09 And I lived that way for a number of years, 33:14 until one day, I was desperate for a change. 33:17 I knew that life was not what I wanted it to be, 33:21 but I didn't know how to change. 33:22 And one day, I just was contemplating my life 33:25 and I heard this, that voice 33:27 that I'd never really heard before and it said, 33:28 "Danielle, you've got to change. 33:30 You're going to die." 33:31 And that was when I knew that I needed to really wake up 33:34 and do something about the position that I was in. 33:37 And I knew the one change I could make was 33:39 to move away from the, the city 33:41 and move back into the country with my father, so I did that. 33:44 And one by one, the Holy Spirit began to show me 33:48 other things that I could change as well. 33:50 I started getting off of the drugs, 33:51 I started going vegan mostly for animal rights reasons 33:54 but there were other things too. 33:56 When every step that I took in the right direction 34:00 allowed my mind to become more clear 34:01 for the Holy Spirit to continue to speak to me and... 34:04 How did you find Jesus? 34:06 Well, that's a really beautiful story 34:08 that, I mean, we could spend a whole day talking about. 34:11 To sum that up, my sister 34:14 who also had been studying the Bible 34:16 with that Adventist neighbor, eventually was baptized 34:19 and eventually ended up marrying that neighbor boy 34:21 that we were studying with. 34:23 And her and her husband went out 34:24 to one of her health institutions, 34:27 and it was there that I really started to see 34:30 who Christ was. 34:31 I started to see what it meant to live like a Christian 34:34 and even though you might not be perfect, 34:36 that you walk with him, 34:38 and if you fall, you get back up. 34:40 And God sent multiple messages into my life 34:43 through different people 34:44 to really show me who Christ was. 34:46 And that was what I lacked. 34:48 I lacked a true understanding of God and His character. 34:50 And it was through finally seeing Him 34:52 that I was ready and willing to surrender, 34:55 not only my sexuality but all of the other things 34:57 that I was holding on to. 34:58 Praise the Lord. It's beautiful. 35:02 Last but not least, brother Wayne. 35:04 I'm on way. 35:07 Well, you know, we're referred to as extreme conversions, 35:11 but I just wanna say that 35:13 any conversion should be an extreme conversion. 35:18 I was born to a mother who was adamant 35:21 about not wanting a boy. 35:23 She hated boys, she only wanted girls, 35:26 and so within the first two years of my life, 35:30 she had broken my arm in two different places. 35:33 And my father was in the Air Force, 35:36 so he wasn't home that much. 35:38 He came home and recognized 35:40 that, yeah, we really do have a problem here, 35:43 and so he reached out to an aunt and uncle 35:48 who were aware of the situation and they began to pray, 35:53 and consider that 35:56 they would make a proposition to my father, 35:59 and that they wanted to permanently adopt me. 36:03 And now they see me passed around 36:05 to find a place of comfort, 36:09 just all that passing around added confusion to my life. 36:13 Well, my birth mother had really already done the damage, 36:17 prenatally, by only desiring a boy 36:20 and, only desiring a girl, and then when I'm born, 36:24 being a boy and physically harming me. 36:27 So at three years old, 36:29 I'm running around the house screaming, 36:31 "I don't want to be a boy. I want to be a girl." 36:34 And so people asked, "Well, how could that be? 36:37 If you hate women so much, 36:38 how come you wanted to become one?" 36:40 But, but what was the detachment was that, 36:43 that my mother didn't want me unless I was a girl 36:47 and so, could I possibly get that love 36:50 if I could just be that girl? 36:52 And I begin to adopt more creative types of things. 36:57 I began to be acting more like a girl than a boy. 37:01 I was interested in playing with dolls, 37:03 and dressing up like girls, and entering beauty contests, 37:07 you know, but they were, you know, "my own." 37:12 And when I entered school, I was, 37:15 I was teased from the very first day to the last. 37:18 I didn't know how I would make it through 37:20 12 years of school. 37:22 And even in the process of all of that, 37:24 my teachers were not particularly helpful. 37:26 I had a Bible teacher that joined in in the teasing 37:28 and the harassing of me as well. 37:30 I couldn't find a place that was "safe", 37:33 you know, that we want to call today. 37:35 But safety is not in providing a space 37:38 in which somebody can be who they want to be, 37:42 sexually safe places and to coming to find out 37:45 what Jesus desires for you and for your life. 37:48 That's, that's a great point 37:50 because with the whole transgender emphasis, 37:55 the idea of a safe environment 37:58 is let your charges be what they... 38:01 Dictated to you whatever, yeah. Wanna be. 38:02 Yeah, but you're saying 38:04 that that's really not a safe environment. 38:07 But the safety comes from? 38:09 The only safety, and... 38:13 We can be anything we want to be by our own definition, 38:19 unless Jesus is in the picture. 38:21 And if Jesus is in the picture and we go to His word, 38:25 we go to His love letter to find out 38:27 what is His desire for my life, 38:29 because we all arrive with a whole bunch of junk, 38:32 we have the stain of sin on us. 38:35 And so we're all tempted with all kinds of different things. 38:38 It's just that we didn't talk in this denomination 38:40 and probably many others 38:42 for many, many years about homosexuality. 38:44 But that began to develop in my life. 38:47 I wanted male affirmation. 38:49 I figured that that would become the place 38:51 where, where I would find the strong masculine figure 38:55 that would maybe love me and give value to my life. 38:59 And so in all my confusion 39:01 and all the years of teasing and harassment, 39:04 and not talking about in the church, 39:06 it basically turned out that 39:08 the church was pushing me out of the doors 39:10 by not having the conversation. 39:13 And so at 18 years old, 39:16 I'm working at Lomalinda University 39:19 as a unit secretary, 39:21 there's an orderly there who was always making me laugh. 39:24 He said I needed to call his roommate and I finally did. 39:27 And his roommate said, "Hey, Wayne, you are gay." 39:30 And I'm like, "Wow, I'm just talking to you on the phone. 39:32 What is this thing gay?" 39:34 You know, and he says, "Well, you like guys, don't you?" 39:37 And I said, "Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. 39:41 I didn't ask to be like this, you know." 39:42 And he said, "Oh, you need to come over 39:44 when you get off work." 39:45 And so I did and he was a nice guy 39:47 and we got to talk in for a while. 39:49 And he said, "Do you know, Wayne? 39:52 Adventism breeds homosexuality." 39:55 And I said, "Wow, where on earth do you get that? 39:58 How could you make such a remark?" 40:00 And he said, "Well, you're gay. I'm gay. 40:03 I go to college with a bunch of other guys who are gays. 40:07 So the church has done a great job of telling us 40:08 that homosexual behavior is sinful. 40:11 And then nothing. 40:16 They don't instruct, they don't guide, 40:19 they don't offer help. 40:20 They just tell you that homosexuality is sin." 40:23 And so what happens to bacteria when you put it in the dark? 40:29 It grows, and grows, and grows. 40:32 And so is it just this way about homosexuality? 40:35 Or is it this way also about pornography, about adultery, 40:38 about premarital sex, about anything 40:41 that would distance us from Jesus Christ? 40:43 If we're not talking about the very thing, 40:45 He's asking us to surrender and helping us know 40:49 that we're in an environment of other people 40:51 that are His children as well 40:52 and can be the family He intended us to be, 40:56 then we're really at a loss 40:57 and so people are just praying in church today, 41:00 in many places, and praise God, 41:03 God is taking this into environments 41:05 of where there are hungry people 41:08 that recognize that our message isn't a message of hate. 41:12 It's a message of love. 41:14 We were there, we grew, we lived. 41:16 I lived for 40 years in the gay culture, 41:18 desperately seeking that one person 41:21 that I would fall in love with, that would give me meaning. 41:25 I lived for 12 years in male prostitution. 41:29 And I was hoping that I would meet that one man 41:32 whether it'd be through, 41:33 through his affections towards me, 41:36 or through money, or through something, 41:38 it would give me some kind of a stamp of approval. 41:41 And yet, I couldn't find it. 41:44 And in the mean time, 41:45 all my friends started dying from AIDS. 41:48 And I came to a point in my life, eight years ago, 41:54 where I sat in the comfort of my own bedroom 41:58 and it's interesting 42:01 what the Holy Spirit will do if you're listening. 42:03 Because He really shook me. 42:07 And I realized that I was the one 42:10 that should be dead 42:11 and for some reason, my life was being preserved. 42:16 And this whole time, this whole 40 years, 42:20 I have two parents who are praying for me. 42:22 And we talk to a lot of parents today 42:24 who want to see a new life in the morning. 42:29 You know, they want someone to be changed 42:31 but the Holy Spirit can't reach somebody who's not ready yet. 42:36 And yet, those prayers that are prayed, 42:38 God hears every single one of those prayers. 42:41 He's got those, holding those in reserve, 42:45 so that when that person 42:47 is finally at a place in their life 42:49 where the only thing they can see is up. 42:53 They've reached their bottom, they've reached their low. 42:56 Now they're listening, the Holy Spirit can go to work. 43:00 And so I began to realize that what this is really about. 43:05 Our life on this earth is about 43:06 developing intimacy with Jesus Christ, 43:09 not intimacy with the world. 43:10 Amen. That's right. 43:11 And the Holy Spirit is actually working on you the whole time. 43:14 You know, bringing you to that place of surrender, so that, 43:19 'cause we can't even come to Him on our own, 43:22 He, it's because of Him, we can finally just confess, 43:27 so He was working on you, 43:30 bringing you to that place of surrender. 43:32 And at what point did you do it? 43:35 You know, I was confounded. 43:40 I thought, "Wow! Why is this happening to me?" 43:43 And I felt driven to look on the internet to see 43:48 how had the church finally developed 43:50 and outreached to somebody 43:51 who suffered from same sex attraction. 43:54 And I couldn't find that the church had done that, 43:57 but I found a lady who had been reaching out 44:01 to those who are identified as gay or same sex attracted. 44:05 And she began to help me in recognizing the call 44:08 that Jesus had on my life. 44:10 And one day, again, I was in my bedroom 44:14 and I've been reading, 44:15 I've been reading the beautiful book 44:17 called "Desire of ages." 44:18 And as I read the book 44:20 and as I began to study the Bible, 44:22 I was at the foot of my bed sobbing 44:25 and, and saying, "God, I don't know. 44:27 I don't know how you can forgive me 44:29 because I've lead so many people 44:31 in the wrong direction. 44:32 You know, I've caused other people to stumble and to fall." 44:35 And yet I was convicted about what I was reading 44:38 and that He said, "This is why I went to the cross, 44:41 to shed my blood for you. 44:44 This pays for it, Wayne, and life can change for you. 44:48 All you have to do is accept Jesus into your heart." 44:53 And I said, I will be yours, 44:56 now I need You to reveal Yourself to me." 44:59 I ended up walking into the church. 45:02 And a pastor gave a sermon asking us to turn to page 45:08 or to text, Philippians 4:13, and I had a Bible with me, 45:12 that I hadn't opened in 35 years, 45:14 and a friend had given it to me. 45:16 And when I got to there, it said, 45:19 "Wayne can do all things through Jesus Christ." 45:21 Amen. How beautiful. 45:24 Wow. 45:27 All I can say is, well, what you guys are doing 45:29 in your ministry is absolutely amazing. 45:32 I mean, we live in a day and age not with, 45:35 not just with homosexuality 45:37 but everything that is against the word of God 45:41 is being promoted and glorified. 45:43 You know, Satan knows that 45:44 his time on this earth is short. 45:46 And each day that passes by brings us closer to going home. 45:51 He's trying everything in his power to get us lost. 45:56 I mean, even people in the church, 45:57 whether it's pulling them super conservative, 46:00 or ultra conservative, or whatever, 46:02 over super liberal, where anything goes 46:06 and, you know, you're a Christian in name only. 46:09 However you fall out the boat, he doesn't care 46:11 as long as you're miserable with him. 46:12 That's right. 46:14 So, you know, it's important to stay focused 46:18 and stay grounded on the word. 46:20 And you guys are going around, you're opening up, 46:23 you're being vulnerable, you're allowing God to use you. 46:26 And I'm just amazed by, by your ministry. 46:31 You know, Jason, I would just like to go back 46:33 to the beginning of how we opened this program 46:37 and about praying the gay away. 46:40 Actually to be honest with you, 46:43 the only way that gay stays away from me 46:45 is in maintaining an unbroken relationship 46:48 with Jesus Christ. 46:49 It is only through prayer and through study 46:52 that the things that would pull us, 46:54 that the worldly things that would pull us away 46:57 no matter what it is, 46:58 if we're in a constant state of prayer, 47:00 that's how sin stays away. 47:02 Abide in me, Jesus says. Abide in me. 47:06 You guys have an incredible documentary. 47:10 I was just about to say. Oh, see, see. 47:14 We call it, God's family. Absolutely. 47:17 And we've aired it here at 3ABN and on Dare to Dream 47:21 and we're gonna continue to air it on Dare to Dream, 47:24 and I'm sure on 3ABN as well. 47:26 We have a trailer that we're gonna show 47:29 that kind of tells what it's all about, 47:32 it gives your story. 47:34 Let's take a look. 47:42 When I was growing up, 47:43 I never found anyone really talking about the gay issue, 47:46 in fact, every reference that was made 47:49 about the gay issue in those days was a, a slur. 47:55 I remember I would go home 47:57 and I would go into our bathroom 47:58 that had a door on either side and I would lock both doors 48:01 and I would look in the mirror 48:02 and I would punch myself in the face. 48:04 And I would scream at God and I would yell at him 48:07 and I would say, "Why God? Why? 48:10 Why did you create a boy 48:12 when I was supposed to be a girl?" 48:17 In the Bible, we're talked about 48:18 homosexuality being an abomination. 48:20 And I got angry at God. 48:22 I said, "How dare you 48:24 say that I'm an abomination when you made me this way? 48:26 That's not fair. I didn't choose this thing. 48:28 I didn't want this thing. 48:30 And as hard as I fought to, to not be those things, 48:33 and I prayed, and I asked You to change me, 48:35 You never didn't, so this is who I am. 48:37 Take it or leave it." 48:39 And the church has done a good job 48:40 by telling us that homosexual behavior is sinful. 48:46 And that's the end of the conversation. 48:48 If I'm a lesbian, I'm just, you know, 48:51 that's sin and sin equals death, 48:54 so why would I join a religion that tells me 48:56 that I'm just gonna die for being who I am. 48:58 So being a Christian is about being saved from sin. 49:03 So then the question is, well, what is sin? 49:05 And that is the human condition, 49:07 it's that we are drawn to things 49:09 that are harmful to us. 49:12 We need something else to draw us away 49:15 from self-destructing. 49:18 It doesn't matter what you've done, 49:20 He will always love you. 49:22 But He's not gonna drag you kicking and screaming. 49:26 And that was a whole new concept. 49:32 He said, "You're my son. 49:37 And I don't condemn you as a sinner. 49:39 I died for your sins, 49:41 but I asked for you to give yourself over to me 49:45 because there's a better way." 49:59 What a powerful piece of work. 50:02 Absolutely. Journey Interrupted. 50:05 And we were so blessed to be able to air it here. 50:08 And we thank you for your work and all that you've been doing. 50:12 What kinds of reception 50:14 have you received with all of these, 50:19 like with, with your particular ministry, 50:21 what kind of reception have you received, 50:23 first within the church, and then from society at large? 50:27 You know, what's powerful is 50:29 we had an opportunity, 50:30 just be Wayne and I, and Pastor Deena, 50:32 and what our hope is, really for the last five years, 50:37 is that we can turn the church around 50:39 to be more opened to, to this issue. 50:41 Not just this issue but people that struggle with anything. 50:44 And Pastor Deena's church was really, in my opinion, 50:47 the example of what all churches should be. 50:50 There were protests going on 50:52 and the gay affirming Christians 50:53 were promoting this, this protest and so... 50:57 Protest against you? 50:59 Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Against your ministry. Wow. 51:02 And so here at the LGBT, you know, 51:04 community came out and they had their banners, 51:07 and their signs, and these little Filipino ladies 51:10 in their Sabbath dresses come out and they say, 51:12 "If you have to use the bathroom 51:13 or if you get tired, come in and sit, 51:15 we have muffins for you, 51:17 and hot chocolate, and water..." 51:18 And they're passing this out, 51:20 and these protestors are looking at them. 51:22 It was like, what? 51:23 And then at lunch time, the pastor comes out himself 51:26 to one of the protestors holding a flag and he says, 51:28 "You know, come inside. We've made haystacks for you." 51:31 And the guy's like, "No, I have to hold the flag." 51:33 And he goes, "No, let me hold the flag 51:35 while you come in and eat." 51:37 And there was that pastor holding the flag for the LGBT, 51:40 you know, community while they came in and ate 51:42 and that is the example 51:45 of what the church needs to be now, 51:47 to help people like us. 51:48 That's what we were hoping to find 51:50 when we came back into the church 51:51 and that helps us to realize 51:54 that it is making a difference in that, 51:56 we have to show people Christ's love first, 51:59 meet them where they are. 52:01 You know, as we address our needs 52:02 and then call them to follow Christ. 52:04 Yes. Yes. Absolutely. 52:06 Wayne, what have you seen? 52:08 Well. 52:09 It's been mixed, you know, but, you know, 52:12 I have to remember Jesus and His ministry. 52:14 Jesus had the greatest love that's, ever existed 52:18 and yet people, they spit in His face, 52:21 they refused Him, you know, 52:23 He hung on a cross and died for them. 52:25 And so, it's interesting in our life today 52:28 that adversity comes from, from outside 52:30 and it comes from inside too. 52:32 But it's from a lack of understanding 52:34 and the peace that we have is that, 52:36 it's because someone hasn't known 52:39 what's possible through Jesus Christ. 52:41 Absolutely. 52:43 And that's the key, you know, 52:44 knowing what is possible to Jesus, 52:47 what Jesus can do, 52:49 not just with homosexuality but any sin, 52:52 that's what, that's what's so beautiful 52:54 about what you guys do, 52:55 you give tools to overcome sin in general. 52:58 And I know that our viewers want to contact you. 53:02 Let's take a look and find out just how to reach you. 53:07 If you would like to contact Coming Out Ministries 53:09 or find out more about them, 53:11 you may write to Coming Out Ministries, 53:14 PO Box 701, Battle Ground, WA 98604. 53:19 That's Coming Out Ministries, 53:21 PO Box 701, Battle Ground, WA 98604. 53:26 You may call (360) 936-8514. 53:31 That's (360) 936-8514. 53:35 You can also visit them online at ComingOutMinistries.org. 53:39 That's Coming-Out-Ministries.org. 53:43 Contact them today. They'd love to hear from you. |
Revised 2021-07-06