Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY018087A
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00:01 I want to spend my life
00:07 Mending broken people 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:18 Removing pain 00:23 Lord, let my words 00:30 Heal a heart that hurts 00:34 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:45 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:11 Hello, and welcome to 3ABN Today! I'm so 01:15 excited. I have Jason Bradley, my son and 01:18 co-host. Hey Jace! And we have an amazing 01:23 program. Are you excited about the program? - I'm 01:25 excited about it. - Tell us why. - Because, I 01:27 mean, we're going to be discussing topics that 01:29 need to be discussed. I mean, there are things 01:32 that are going on in our world that society is 01:35 trying to normalize and make it seem like it's 01:39 an acceptable form of behavior, and we have 01:44 to counteract the counterfeit. - There we 01:46 go. And our guests are on the front lines. 01:50 I mean, they are fighting for... I guess for 01:57 redemption and showing that people can be 02:03 redeemed. So, instead of me talking about it, 02:04 why don't I introduce our guests? Our guests 02:07 are from Coming Out Ministries. Pastor Ron Woolsey 02:11 and Mike Carducci. Yay! You guys are 02:16 more than just our colleagues in ministry; 02:18 you're our brothers and you're our family, 02:21 and we love you guys. - Thank you. - Yeah. 02:24 Yvonne, you gave us the first break years ago 02:26 by interviewing us. - Well, praise the Lord. 02:29 It's interesting, because I was at ASI and I met 02:34 Wayne there. Before I met you, I think I met 02:37 Wayne first. He was at the booth, at the Coming 02:42 Out Ministries booth, and we started talking. 02:45 I found out what your ministry was about. I 02:50 was like, "Oh, no. Our 3ABN viewers 02:52 have to know about this," so we're really thankful 02:55 that you guys are here. Tell us about Coming Out 02:57 Ministries! What is it? - Well, we organized about 03:03 8 years ago. A number of us were working 03:06 individually in our own ministries, sharing our 03:10 testimonies and speaking for the Lord wherever 03:12 we had opportunity. A mutual acquaintance 03:16 called us and suggested we get together, meet 03:19 each other, talk about working together, and 03:22 we did that-SoCal Camp Meeting out in 03:26 California-and there, Coming Out Ministries 03:29 was born, and we've been carrying on now for 03:33 eight years. - What are you coming out of? 03:37 How'd the name... - Darkness into His 03:39 marvelous light. - Yes. Mike, tell us what your 03:46 impression of Coming Out Ministries-the 03:48 focus. - Sure. Well, when I came out of 03:52 the gay culture, after living that way for 20 03:55 years-and I had come out of Adventism basically 03:58 because I couldn't get my sexuality and my 04:00 religion to come together. So, when I came back, 04:03 I still didn't have resources available to 04:07 me to help guide me. I still struggle with 04:10 same-sex attraction; I still was struggling with 04:11 a lot of these things inside my mind, and I 04:14 thought that magically, it would all be gone 04:16 when I came up out of the water. As Coming 04:18 Out Ministries, we really intended to minister 04:22 primarily to people like ourselves that 04:24 were desperate for resources and tend to know, 04:27 "Hey, this is somebody else's experience and 04:30 this can be yours." I think what really 04:32 happened for me is that it watered down 04:34 the power of Jesus Christ to the point 04:36 where I just thought Jesus was a good guy. What 04:39 I had to realize, again, is that He still had 04:41 the same power that He had 2000 years ago 04:44 to heal people. And Ministry of Healing 04:46 was one of the books that really helped me 04:50 to understand that process, but what we 04:52 realize now is that Coming Out Ministries 04:54 really has an application for all of us. We're 04:57 all coming out. Revelation says, "Come out of her, 04:59 my peoples." Let's get a T-shirt that just says, 05:02 "I'm coming out," and on the back put- in Revelation: 05:05 "Come out of her, my people." Now, we see 05:09 that the ministry is much broader than just 05:11 the LGBT issue; it's about educating the 05:14 church and also ministering to victory over sin. 05:17 - That's one of the things that I love 05:19 about Coming Out Ministries. You don't just focus 05:23 on homosexual sin; you focus on sin, because 05:30 sin is sin across the board. We're all sinners 05:33 saved by grace, so you guys don't just focus 05:37 on one sin; sin is sin, and you talk about 05:41 how to get the victory. And you, Pastor Ron, 05:43 just said, "It's about bringing us out from 05:46 darkness into God's light." We have-how 05:50 about this segue?-we have a song called, 05:54 "The Lighthouse" that we're going to play 05:56 right now with Brother Sam Ocampo. 10:23 Wow. Sam makes me wish I would've stuck with 10:25 piano lessons. I don't know why you let me 10:27 quit! - [laughs] You know, don't get me started 10:30 with that! You don't even want me to go 10:32 there! - I don't think we have enough time. 10:33 [laughter] - I know; we don't even wanna 10:36 go there. Yes, and thank you, Sam, for that song. 10:39 We need the light of Jesus Christ in our lives 10:43 to bring us out from darkness! And that's 10:47 what we're talking about today. God has 10:50 brought you, has brought us, out from darkness 10:52 into His marvelous light. - You know, one 10:55 of the things that I really appreciate and 10:57 admire about you guys is you're open; you're 11:00 transparent. I mean, you have to be very vulnerable 11:04 because you share some things that took place in 11:08 your lives that a lot of people would be 11:12 uncomfortable sharing. But yet, you do that, 11:14 and people see that you gained the victory over 11:19 whatever it was that you were struggling 11:20 within your past. And that helps other 11:23 people overcome, as well; it gives them a sense 11:26 of hope. - You know, one thing, I think, that 11:29 helps us-and I can share an example-I call this 11:33 "the gospel according to gossip." There was a 11:36 gossiper at a camp meeting that was 11:39 talking about me and my past, and the gossipee, 11:42 the one listening, was not hearing about Ron 11:45 Woolsey's failures; he was hearing about God's 11:47 power. Though the intent of the gossiper was 11:51 malicious, the gossipee then came to me (and 11:56 I didn't know this conversation had gone 11:57 on). He looked at me kind of funny. He said, 12:00 "Man, Pastor Ron. If God can save you, He 12:04 can save anybody!" And I said, "What do you mean 12:08 by that?" [laughter] Then he had told me 12:10 what he had heard, then afterwards, he 12:13 asked if I would baptize him. That's why 12:14 I called it "the gospel according to gossip." 12:16 I baptized that fella after that episode of 12:19 gossip that he went through. But it's true 12:24 when you hear that kind of reaction to your 12:28 extreme testimony, you realize, "We serve 12:31 an extreme God," and we need to talk about 12:33 it. It's not about what we have done 12:37 and what the devil has done in our lives; it's 12:39 what God has done that we focus on, and that 12:42 gives us courage to go forward. - Absolutely. 12:45 - I think of Revelation 12:11 that says if we 12:47 overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the 12:49 word of our testimony... And when we give our 12:52 testimony, it's not just the people that 12:54 struggle with same-sex attraction that come 12:56 forward. It's everyone! And they say, "Wow, 12:59 that story really touched me and had a personal 13:03 application." I think that it's really sad 13:07 that more people don't have that freedom to 13:09 tell their story, 'cause people say, "Oh, that 13:11 was really brave of you to really tell all 13:12 the details," or whatever. And I think, 13:14 "No, not really," because whenever I tell that 13:16 story, we get a lot of support, and I think 13:19 of the people that are really hurting in the 13:21 pews that don't feel that they have the 13:24 freedom to tell what they've gone through. 13:26 So, maybe at first, it was a little daring, 13:28 but now, we get a lot of support from the 13:31 churches and places that we speak at. - I 13:33 think it would be good for our viewers who 13:36 are just tuning in for the first time-... 13:40 Some of our viewers have heard your story 13:42 before, but some have not. Can you just kind 13:46 of give a brief snippet of your testimony so 13:49 that you can kind of acquaint the people 13:52 who don't know about you with you? - Well, 13:55 it's a good question that you're asking, 13:57 because our ministry really does have a 14:00 three-pronged approach now (and maybe we 14:05 can talk about that). The first is that we 14:09 want to inspire the church, and we inspire 14:13 by telling our testimonies. Mike quoted Revelation 14:17 12:11 that we overcome by the blood of the 14:19 Lamb and the word of our testimonies, and we 14:21 find people that are very inspired when they 14:24 hear what the Lord has done in our lives. I was 14:28 the one who was sexually molested as 14:31 a very young child- 4 years old. I was 14:33 repeatedly molested in grade school. I think 14:37 I was pushed away from my peer group 14:40 and pushed away from my gender through mocking 14:43 and making fun and through molestation. I ended 14:49 up eventually going into the gay life and spent 14:52 many years there, but I never really was 14:57 comfortable that I was okay with God, and I 15:00 was a spiritual person. After years of spending 15:03 my life in the gay world, I studied my 15:06 way out. I went to the Bible, I went to our 15:11 inspired writings (books like Steps to Christ and 15:15 The Great Controversy and Desire of Ages)- 15:19 all of those. I know I started out reading 15:21 with a margarita in one hand and a 15:23 cigarette in the other. I was desperate to 15:25 find answers. I found everything I needed 15:29 as a gay person. I found everything I needed 15:32 through the Word of God to turn and walk away. 15:36 That was a struggle, but it was doable 15:39 because God's grace is sufficient. So, I have 15:42 lived these 27 years now free from the gay 15:46 life; married for 26 years. We have 5 15:50 children between us; 2 together. We have 15:54 grandchildren. 27 years in ministry, and the 15:57 Lord has never failed me. I know I have 16:00 failed Him from time to time, but He has never 16:02 failed me. I would never go back. So, 16:05 we hope people are inspired by that. I 16:07 know Mike's got an amazing testimony, 16:10 as well. - Yes... - It's interesting, because 16:14 each person in Coming Out Ministries has a 16:16 completely different story, and a lot of 16:18 people think that there's a formula for why 16:20 somebody's gay or bisexual. One of the 16:23 beautiful things also that Coming Out 16:25 Ministries has been working on is an 16:27 associate pathway where other people 16:29 come in and they're like, "I have a story!" 16:31 You know? "I want to tell my story; we want 16:33 to work with you!" So, Pastor Ron actually 16:36 oversees that, and through Bible studies 16:38 and opportunities for them to practice telling 16:41 their story, we're actually bringing in 16:43 other people into the ministry, as well. But 16:45 my story actually began from my first conscious 16:48 moment; I thought I was a girl. It was no doubt 16:50 in my mind from my earliest thoughts, and 16:53 it wasn't until I came back at 40 years old 16:56 that I made this demand to God; I wanted Him to 16:58 know how I was transgendered at my earliest thoughts. 17:01 And through science and through the Bible, it 17:03 started to show me that there was a breakdown 17:06 between my father and me- the same-sex parent. 17:08 My dad was either unavailable for me or, 17:11 when he was, he was angry and abusive, so 17:13 I didn't want that sexuality or that 17:16 identity, and so I went to my mom. My 17:19 earliest thoughts after consciousness is that 17:21 I should be like my sisters without another 17:23 role model that I found acceptable. I just 17:27 started patterning that way and I thought 17:29 that if I prayed hard enough that maybe, 17:31 God would turn me into a little girl and everything 17:32 would be alright. So, that eventually led to 17:36 same-sex attraction through some exposure 17:40 to my best friends engaging in a homosexual 17:44 act; all of these things were having an influence 17:46 on me-and I was never molested like Ron was- 17:49 but there were definitely some influences that 17:51 were helping to shape that. At 20 years old, 17:53 I finally was okay with being male, because 17:56 coming out of church culture into gay culture, 17:59 masculinity was more valuable. So, if I 18:02 butch it up a little bit and worked out in the 18:04 gym, I found that I got all the attention 18:06 from men that I wanted. So, it was like it went 18:08 from one side of the ditch to the other. Amazingly, 18:12 though, I had three sisters that were 18:13 praying for me. Wanted nothing to do with 18:15 the God that I thought wanted nothing to do 18:17 with me, but those prayers came and got 18:19 me. At what I thought was the top of my game, 18:24 I was a hairdresser and an aerobics 18:26 instructor. I don't know that you can get 18:27 any more gay than that; that was-... [laughter] 18:30 That was the pinnacle of my life. The Lord 18:33 was able to reach me; began this journey. It 18:36 was difficult, because, again, I needed those 18:39 resources that Coming Out Ministries has now, 18:41 but the Lord was faithful. He says, "I'll 18:43 finish the work that I have started," and He's 18:45 been incredibly faithful. - Amen. Amen. - You 18:48 know, that second prong of our approach is to 18:54 enlighten the church, so we go beyond our 18:57 testimonies through our study and our 19:00 experience and the study of the Word of God. 19:02 We worked to educate the church. For example, 19:06 we addressed certain myths that are out 19:10 there, because we believe truth can bear 19:12 scrutiny. Truth is fact, and fact cannot be 19:17 altered; gravity works without- I mean, there's 19:19 no contest on how gravity works. It doesn't matter 19:23 what you believe; it's going to work the same 19:25 way all the time, and truth is that way. So, 19:28 we believe that truth can bear scrutiny. We 19:30 take various statements that come, for example, 19:33 out of the LGBT culture that "people are born 19:36 this way; once gay, always gay; it's an 19:39 acceptable alternative lifestyle; it's not 19:41 associated with promiscuity, and it's 19:45 a safe culture," and all of that. So, we take 19:49 these statements and then we just present 19:54 facts from science-from research-from surveys, 19:58 and we go back to the history of where this 20:02 "born gay" ideology even came from. It was totally 20:05 political. It is not scientific; it's not 20:09 biblical; it's political to get special privileges 20:13 as a legal minority status. So, we present 20:16 all of this, then we also take the Word 20:20 of God and say, "Now, let's look at what God 20:22 has to say about that statement and this 20:25 statement," so we really scrutinize the issues 20:29 from that perspective and we educate the church. 20:34 So many people- it's amazing how many people 20:37 have bought all of these lies from the enemy that, 20:41 even in the church, we always get this question 20:43 in a Q&A period. "What about those people who 20:46 are just born that way?" I mean, the church has 20:50 been drinking this in and has been affected 20:53 mainly because of not being educated. It's 20:56 not a willful ignorance; it's just a lack of 21:00 information, so we deal with these issues, and 21:03 Mike deals with some specific ones. - It's 21:06 also misinformation, because what's happening 21:11 is, there's a concerted effort on the part of 21:14 media to actually misinform. And also, 21:19 if you... You guys are coming from a place 21:23 of, "Let's love our LGBTQ community. Let's 21:29 love them; let's show them that there is a 21:32 better way-that God has a better way for 21:35 you." The counterfeit is, "You were born this way, 21:44 you can't get out of it..." You cannot even, 21:48 now, call it sin, because if you identify it as 21:53 sin, you're a homophobic or a bigot. So, it puts 22:00 you in this box of being hesitant to share the 22:05 gospel with someone who's going through 22:07 that, because you don't want to be misconceived 22:10 as a bigot! - Another issue is, you hear a lot 22:17 of people say, "Well, what is your truth?" 22:20 There's only one. There's only THE truth; you know? 22:23 It's the truth; not "What is your truth? 22:25 What is my truth?" The truth is the truth. So 22:28 many people are operating on feelings 22:31 as opposed to principles which- we are to stand 22:34 firm on principles that are found in the Word 22:36 of God. - And we are to call sin by its right 22:39 name. - That's right. - We cannot allow 22:41 political correctness to take a moral issue 22:43 out of the category of sin! We put it back 22:47 where it belongs. We do it with love and 22:49 compassion and with mercy and understanding. 22:53 We've been there, so we're not talking against 22:58 someone else; we're dealing where we have 23:01 been, and now, what we have come to know 23:04 because of our experience. - And I think that's 23:07 what makes the difference. I can talk to someone 23:10 who's used drugs. I could talk till I'm blue 23:14 in the face, but I have not personally 23:16 had that experience. I can talk to somebody 23:19 about being on every diet under the sun; I 23:22 can do that, and I can relate to that. But 23:25 there are just... 23:30 If you have not experienced it, you 23:33 can't really address it like someone who has. 23:36 You guys have come out from that culture, and 23:42 so no one can say to you, "Well, you don't 23:46 know what it's like." No! You've been there, 23:48 and you've been redeemed- and you want to share 23:51 it with others who are still there who don't 23:55 know how to get out. You've gotten out! 23:57 Praise God. - I think that's what Coming Out 23:59 Ministries really does offer is because, for 24:02 so long in the church, they had the truth, 24:05 but they did it with a sledge hammer. Now, 24:08 the other extreme is, it's all permissive. 24:14 "Just do whatever you want," or whatever, 24:16 and it's like, no! It's not like that, but it's 24:18 not like that, either. So, we have compassion 24:21 because we've been there and we've fought 24:23 that fight with Jesus Christ to come out and 24:26 to understand that. In the midst of all that 24:28 confusion and chaos, even coming back into 24:31 a church that will look at us like a freak 24:32 from Mars- we want to help people to recognize 24:36 that we need a lot more compassion in the 24:39 church, but we're not going to compromise 24:41 the truth in the process of doing that, 24:43 either. So, now we find ourselves really in a 24:45 bigger dilemma than we thought earlier. One 24:49 of the things, also, that Coming Out Ministries 24:51 has really evolved into is it's a ministry about 24:54 overcoming sexual sin. The #1 issue in the 24:57 church is not homosexuality; it's pornography. We have 25:01 even heterosexual men and women that are 25:04 coming into the ministry wanting to help because 25:07 they're experiencing victory over their 25:08 pornography or sexual acting out. I was speaking 25:12 to a young woman in August, and she's a 25:15 youth leader in her church and talking 25:17 about how she's addicted to pornography 25:19 and she's sexually active with other 25:21 people that are in our youth group, and they're 25:23 in their mid-twenties. I said, "Wait, don't 25:25 you know what the Bible says about that?" And 25:26 she says, "Well, not really, because the 25:28 church isn't talking about it. The world 25:30 is screaming ed, and they're telling us one 25:32 thing and the church doesn't say anything, 25:34 so we basically think that it's okay!" So, we 25:37 have a lot of education to do in the church-not 25:40 just on the gay issue, but on the sexuality 25:42 issue. - I think on all those taboo topics-like 25:47 drugs, sex-everything needs to be discussed 25:50 because whatever they're not teaching, you can 25:53 believe- like you said, the world is being 25:56 loud. They're bold, and they're putting 25:58 it right in your face, so it's our job to 26:01 educate. - This is why the term 'coming out' is 26:04 taking on such a broader meaning, because it's 26:07 not just coming out gay or LGBT or pornography 26:12 and masturbation and sexual sin; it's about 26:15 coming out of addictions of many kinds-coming 26:19 out of the addiction of sin itself. So, we 26:23 have found that it's taking on a much 26:26 broader focus than we had imagined, and our 26:32 third prong... - Wait, wait, wait, before you 26:34 go there- I wanted to add I found this quote 26:38 from Ellen White in Testimonies on Sexual 26:41 Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, and she 26:43 said- she calls it "Satan's repetitious 26:46 plot." What she talked about is how the Israelites 26:49 were brought down by sexual sin as they were 26:52 on the banks of the Canaan land, right? 26:55 She said, "Satan will do this same thing 26:57 with all his strength when the heavenly"- 27:00 what did it say- "when the Israelites of our 27:04 day our standing on the heavenly banks of the 27:07 Canaan land." So right there, Ellen White makes 27:09 it very plain that the same issues that brought 27:12 down the Israelites are the same issues 27:14 today. We know that by handheld devices and 27:16 iPads and computers that our leadership, 27:20 our men and women, are being destroyed 27:23 out of the sexual sin, and yet could that be 27:25 part of the Laodicea that we struggle with 27:27 because nobody's talking about it? - Right. You 27:30 know how on Dare to Dream, we are always 27:33 trying to be cutting edge and all that, 27:36 and we have a new program coming out called, 27:38 "Exposing the Hidden Agenda." Raynond King, 27:41 who you guys know very well, he's hosting that. 27:45 He said-and this is so true-"Sexual activity 27:50 is probably at the top of Satan's list whether 27:55 it's heterosexual promiscuity, whether 27:58 it's homosexual, whether it's bisexual... Whatever 28:00 it is! Sexual activity, that, outside of God's 28:04 will, outside of marriage, that is Satan's 28:07 #1 way to ensnare people these days. It's been 28:12 going on since time and memorial, but that is 28:15 what's happening, and I think we have to really 28:17 look at: it's all about redemption from sin. 28:22 No matter what the sin is, it's all about 28:26 redemption! And that's what you guys teach 28:29 through Coming Out Ministries. That's one 28:32 of the things I love about what you do, 28:34 because anybody can come to one of your 28:36 sessions and get equipped to be delivered from sin, 28:43 because you will give them the tools. That's 28:46 what people don't have. They don't have the 28:49 tools. What's been the reaction to Coming 28:53 Out Ministries from the church, for example? 28:56 - You mentioned a word before we go there- 28:58 you mentioned the word 'equip.' I also want to 29:02 say, Jesus Himself said that, in Luke 17, "As 29:06 it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when 29:09 the Son of man shall be revealed." So this issue... 29:11 ...it is a last-day phenomenon-a global 29:16 issue; but you mentioned 'equip.' That's the third 29:19 prong of our approach is to equip the church 29:22 for better service, with not just this issue, 29:26 but addictive issues, period. We both grew 29:28 up in a church that was not talking about these 29:31 issues. There were no resources; there was 29:35 no one we felt we could trust to talk to. 29:37 It was 18 years ago that someone from 29:42 The Review came to me and said, "Ron, we need 29:44 a resource on this issue. Would you write 29:47 your story?" So, that's where, I guess, we began 29:52 creating resources. It's amazing to me, and 29:56 amazing to us that God is using us, of all 29:59 people, to create the very resources that we 30:04 desperately needed in our youth. So, we now 30:07 have books, thanks to 3ABN and Dare to Dream- 30:14 you know, your networks. We have a lot of television 30:17 programs on DVDs that people are using. We 30:21 have lots of DVDs and pocket tracts and, 30:24 like I said, books. And our film, our documentary 30:30 which you have aired here. So, we're excited 30:33 that the Lord is using our ministry to create 30:36 the very resources that we ourselves desperately 30:40 needed, but we didn't have the experience 30:42 back then. Now, we have not only theology through 30:45 our training and our denomination and Bible 30:49 study, but we have our experience to add to it. 30:52 It makes a very powerful resource. - Absolutely. 30:55 - And I interrupted your question; I'm 30:57 sorry. - No, no, no! That's okay! Well, you wanted 30:59 to finish the 3... - I wanted to do the 3-pronged... 31:00 - That's really important- those 3 prongs. - So, while 31:04 we're on that third prong still, I just want 31:06 to mention, Yvonne, I remember that day when 31:08 you had actually interviewed the founding members 31:10 of Coming Out Ministries, and that was at least 31:12 7 years ago. We had prayed and we had done 31:15 our testimonies and you were very gracious, 31:18 and as we were closing in prayer, you stepped 31:19 forward and you said, "Wait a minute. I believe 31:22 that the Holy Spirit says that there's more 31:25 on this topic to share," and that was when you 31:27 invited us back and we did a whole series. 31:30 - You did two seasons. - Yeah- over 50 programs! 31:34 - And those programs still help many individuals. 31:37 We carry them on our website and we go to 31:40 different trade shows, and they've helped a 31:42 lot of people. - Praise the Lord. And they're 31:44 on our YouTube channel! - Yes. - Pure Choices is 31:47 on our YouTube channel, so people can watch 31:51 and get equipped to deal with these situations. 31:55 So, we are so thankful that you guys stepped 31:57 up to the plate and knocked out all of those 31:59 programs like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. 32:02 What a blessing. - It really was. - So, what 32:06 has been the- you come with truth, you come 32:13 with tools, you come with resources... What has 32:17 been the response to your ministry? - It's 32:21 been a lot of hot and a lot of cold. - Okay, 32:25 okay. [laughter] Tell us about both. - No 32:29 lukewarm in there? - Not much; not much. From 32:32 one aspect, a lot of churches are terrified 32:36 about the topic anyway, then I'm sure that 32:39 they're terrified that we're going to really 32:41 not do it in an appropriate and 32:43 spiritual sense. But once they hear us, 32:46 it's miraculous how, at the end of our 32:49 programs, people come up and they go, "Oh, 32:52 I wasn't even going to come," and, "I didn't 32:54 want anything to do with this thing, and 32:55 now that I've heard you, I realize that 32:58 it's not at all what I thought it was," and 33:00 that happens consistently every place that we go. 33:02 And what's even more beautiful is to see 33:05 that now, they're on board, so a lot of times, 33:07 we know that if we can at least just get them to 33:10 hear us that it makes a big difference. Then, 33:13 the other side is that we find that there are 33:16 churches now that have been exposed to the pro-gay 33:19 theology that's coming into the churches, so 33:22 without even giving us an opportunity, they've 33:24 already censored our material or censored 33:27 or message because we've been malaligned. 33:31 People have said that we're conversion therapists. 33:33 None of us have ever gone through any kind 33:36 of conversion therapy, and we even make it very 33:39 clear that that's not who we are, but this 33:42 movement is out there, communicating this message 33:44 of what we aren't, so people are just buying 33:47 that. So, it's very difficult to get into 33:49 those doors. We just got back from being 33:53 in Europe for a month, and this speaking 33:56 engagements that we went to had to be done 33:58 by independent ministries because the conferences 34:00 were not supportive, and even the conference 34:02 leaderships were actually speakers in 34:05 the pro-gay movement that is in our denomination, 34:07 so they're using what they call... What is that- 34:10 a service agreement? - Service request. 34:13 - Service request to actually censor from 34:16 keeping Coming Out Ministries, a Bible-based 34:18 ministry, from not only offering the truth, 34:21 but most importantly, offering compassion and 34:24 another option- another way out for people. 34:27 - Yes! There is a way out that you don't 34:30 have to stay in darkness. There's this 34:33 resistance of admitting that it's darkness. 34:38 But it is! It's like any other sin. It's 34:40 in darkness, and you guys are trying to 34:43 explain how to come out in a loving way. 34:48 - And this is something that really puzzles me, 34:50 because I came into our denomination- 34:55 I came into our faith- through the Bible, 34:57 throughout resources, in the writings of Ellen 34:59 White, Spirit of Prophecy- and it's amazing to 35:04 me when we find opposition- that 35:07 they're opposing the very message that brought 35:10 me into the church, because we're trying 35:13 to present what brought us into this church 35:16 and into Christ. And to find that the things that 35:20 worked for us, a community that's considered to be 35:23 unchangeable and unreachable, we're 35:26 presenting what worked, and it happens to be 35:28 our message. When I say, "our," I'm not 35:32 talking about Mike's and mine; I'm talking 35:33 about our faith. Our denominational 35:35 message is opposed by some of the leaders in 35:40 our own denomination. It's very puzzling and 35:43 very frustrating. However, we do 35:46 find opposition from time to time, but there's 35:51 always a silver lining on these clouds. I 35:53 had a woman come to me at one of my events, 35:56 and she confessed. She said, "I opposed your 35:58 coming. I've opposed it with the board. I've 36:01 sent out emails to everyone, telling 36:03 people not to come, but I was curious and 36:07 I came myself," and she said, "I am so glad I 36:10 came, and I am so sorry for what I had 36:12 done, because your message needs to be 36:15 heard." They come with these misconceptions 36:18 about the conversion therapy. We're about 36:21 conversion of the heart, because what 36:24 is left out of conversion therapy is the divine 36:28 miracle-working power of God! So, that's what 36:31 we're presenting. From a human standpoint, 36:34 you may be right. People cannot change. Well, 36:36 who can? - Right. - It is a miraculous work of 36:40 the Lord to bring us out of darkness into 36:43 His marvelous light. - That's the point, Ron, 36:45 that I think is really the shock of the pro-gay 36:51 movement that's within Christianity is that 36:53 what they've done is they've watered down 36:55 the power of Jesus Christ. We're not 36:57 talking about behavior modification and we're 36:58 not talking about what the world can offer 37:00 you. And you know what? From their standpoint, 37:02 we'd agree! "That's not going to work. Conversion 37:04 therapy's not going to work." And all the other 37:06 modalities that are out there being offered by 37:09 psychologists or whatever... We don't 37:11 support that, either! We're talking about 37:13 divine intervention. That's something that 37:15 the world can't offer you. That's something 37:17 that only Jesus Christ can. And when we 37:20 promote something other than that, then 37:23 the biggest message isn't that homosexuality 37:25 is okay by God; it's the fact that Jesus, 37:28 quite frankly, just doesn't have the power 37:29 to change you. And that, I think, is the most 37:32 alarming about the pro-gay movement in our 37:33 denomination. - You know, when people say, 37:35 "Oh, Ron, you're just denying who you really 37:37 are." I said, "Amen." [laughter] Exactly! 37:42 I am, by nature, a fallen human being, and Jesus 37:45 says, "Deny yourself." Of course I'm denying 37:48 myself! We're to present our body as a living 37:51 sacrifice. We're to be transformed by the renewing 37:54 of our minds. Of course we're denying who we 37:56 naturally are, because as we come to Jesus, we 38:01 become partakers of divine nature through 38:04 the exceeding great and precious promises of God. 38:06 Yes, you have to deny yourself in order to do 38:10 that and to be a new creature. I mean, why 38:12 hang onto that fallen being when we're 38:14 invited to be new creatures in Christ? 38:17 - Because sin is natural. Just being my natural 38:20 self. And it's interesting how the church now is 38:22 using the words of the world to promote the 38:25 worldly theology. - Well, see, the interesting 38:28 thing is in The Great Controversy-and I'm 38:30 paraphrasing-Ellen White says something about, 38:35 you wonder why we're not experiencing the 38:37 same amount of persecution that they experienced 38:40 back in the day. It's because there's so 38:42 much compromise. There's no need- why persecute 38:45 when you're going along with some of the things 38:47 of the world when there's so much compromise? - I 38:50 did want to insert one thing here because 38:52 we're talking about opposition: that we have 38:55 learned that, where the doors close, there 38:58 are more open ones. Someone told me-and 39:01 I forget who it was- but it was such a wise 39:03 comment. They said, "The Lord uses closed 39:06 doors to direct you in other paths you 39:09 should go." So, we don't worry about 39:11 doors closing, because we're booking 12 months 39:14 out. If this door closes, we have 3 39:17 more invitations while that one is closed. So, 39:20 why waste our time where the message is 39:22 going to be rejected and instead of going 39:26 to where people are saying, "Please come 39:28 and help"? - Of course, it breaks our heart 39:30 that any door shuts, because we think of 39:32 those individuals that are either going to be 39:34 left to believe a lie or not have access to 39:36 the truth. But you're right, Ron. We do. We 39:40 have to move the energy towards where the 39:41 doors are open. - And that's a positive 39:43 approach. It keeps us focused on opportunities 39:46 rather than rejection. We are very prone... 39:54 People that come from the gay culture-and 39:56 we can speak authoritatively on this because we've 39:58 been there-we all deal with a perception of 40:02 rejection. It's something we have to cope with 40:05 on a regular basis. So, we have to choose 40:08 not to feel rejected when doors close, 40:12 because our natural inclination is to think, 40:15 "Oh, poor, pitiful me; I'm being rejected 40:17 again." That's not it, because the Lord says, 40:19 "No, but look over here! We have other places 40:22 for you to go." - Right. Right. There are some 40:27 materials being circulated now within our church 40:31 that support the idea that it's okay to be 40:39 gay. And when I say that, it's not, again- 40:43 because I want to make sure that I'm understood 40:46 by anybody who's gay out there. That is your 40:51 struggle. Or if that is your lifestyle and 40:54 you don't feel like you're struggling, 40:55 that's where you want to be, God has a better 40:59 way-and it's all about love! It's not about 41:03 condemning you, judging you... God just 41:07 wants to give you more. He wants to give you a 41:09 better way! And what I found-and guys, tell 41:13 me if this is a misperception on my part. When I 41:19 listen to your testimonies, I've heard that when 41:22 you went into gay culture-just said, 41:26 "Okay, I'm just going to live this lifestyle," 41:28 or whatever-what you found were other people 41:31 who just loved you as you were. They loved 41:34 you almost unconditionally. See, I think that that's 41:37 what we have to do as a church; let people 41:40 know we love you-but there is a better way! 41:44 - Amen. - One parent just mentioned something 41:47 in a text to me a couple of days ago and just 41:49 said, "I've been loving my neighbors that are 41:51 gay, and I really love them, and sometimes, 41:54 I'm exposed to things that I'm uncomfortable with. 41:56 Isn't there something more that I should be 41:59 doing?" And I wrote back and I just basically 42:01 gave her the example of what my sister did. I 42:04 worked in a hair salon with my lover and other 42:07 hairdressers that were gay. And my sister, 42:09 she loved us. Every single one of us, and 42:12 we said awful things. We cussed and swore 42:15 around my sister, but she always had a smile. 42:18 She invited my lovers and I over for holiday 42:20 meals. I thought that she accepted me and 42:22 my gay culture-no doubt about it. Even if I 42:25 misunderstood it, it still is showing me the 42:29 gospel, because then, when the Holy Spirit 42:31 did answer her prayers on my behalf, then it 42:34 was revealed to me what she had been living all 42:37 along. So, even when people say, "Well, 42:39 isn't there something more that I should be 42:41 doing if I'm loving my gay friends or neighbors 42:43 or relatives?" No! That's your job. That's 42:47 what we were told to do, to love our neighbors 42:49 as ourselves. Create a safety net so that the 42:51 Holy Spirit can do His work. And again, Ellen 42:55 White says that prayer moves the arm of 42:57 omnipotence. You need power that you don't 43:00 have. So, prayer is not something that's 43:02 like an afterthought; it should be our first 43:05 priority. And along with those prayers, 43:07 loving that individual, and I think, "Wow, 43:09 thank you, God, for making the gospel so 43:11 easy!" He said, "Love them and pray for them." 43:14 Right? - You mentioned the material being 43:18 circulated in our denomination about love and acceptance. 43:25 I would just want to put out this warning 43:28 to every Christian who is looking at this 43:29 program. We can love people down the broad 43:33 way to destruction. - Unpack that. - That's 43:37 what I call a 'cheap love,' like cheap grace. 43:39 That kind of love is a cop out. It's not 43:43 wanting to deal with the issues and present 43:48 a saving love. So, we can love people and 43:52 accept them and dialogue with them until the 43:55 Lord comes, and we find we've loved them 43:58 down the wrong path! But the kind of love 44:01 that Jesus has is a love that is sometimes 44:06 a tough love. He's a loving Heavenly Father, 44:09 all scripture is given by inspiration of God 44:11 and His profitable doctrine, teaching, for 44:15 reproof, for correction, for instruction. That's 44:19 not what we're seeing in this material! And 44:21 the Gospel Commission says, "We're to teach 44:23 all things, whatsoever He commanded us." 44:25 And so our approach is love, unconditional 44:30 love, but acceptance is into a school of 44:33 discipleship. And in that school of discipleship, 44:36 people must surrender. They must follow the 44:42 discipline of their master. There needs 44:45 to be a surrender of the will, there needs 44:48 to be a willingness to be transformed into 44:51 the image of God, because He is the 44:54 One that really knows what's best for us, 44:56 anyway. So, our approach goes beyond this love 44:59 and acceptance and dialogue that goes into 45:01 discipleship: mentoring, teaching victory over 45:07 sin, transformation of the character, becoming 45:09 like Christ. In other words, we try to love 45:12 people up the narrow way into life rather 45:15 than down the broad way to destruction. 45:18 - It's interesting, we say the same thing, and 45:20 yet the verse that comes to my mind is Isaiah 45:22 4:1. It talks about how 7 women take a 45:26 hold of one man and they say, "We'll wear 45:28 our own clothes and we'll eat our own 45:30 bread; only give us your name to save us 45:33 from reproach." And that's what I see as 45:36 the gay-approving theology that's going on in 45:39 Christianity. It's like, we're just going to 45:42 hold onto this love thing, and we'll discern 45:45 the scriptures the way we want to. And instead 45:47 of the robe of righteousness, we'll wear our own 45:49 robes, and only give us your name. "Christian," 45:52 right? Here's the problem with that. 45:54 It's not gay-to-straight; it's lost-to-saved. By 45:58 hanging onto our old identities and the 46:01 natural identities of what we all struggle 46:05 with, or our natural inclinations, that's 46:07 not saved; that's lost. That's not love. - That's 46:12 right. That's good, because it is all 46:18 about being from lost to saved-for all of 46:22 us! - Jesus came to save us from our sins, so 46:27 we have to acknowledge this is a sin issue, 46:30 or there's no redemption. - That's right. - "Only 46:32 acknowledge your iniquity," He says, 46:34 "and I will heal your backsliding." - But 46:37 that's another issue. In the pro-gay theology, 46:40 it's like those are words of hate-to call 46:43 homosexuality a sin. And again, I think that 46:47 the Christian denomination is responsible for that 46:50 attitude in the gay culture, because we've 46:52 separated it out for so long and just thought 46:54 that homosexuality was the worst sin of 46:56 all, that we separated and said, "Well, they 46:58 can't be saved," so the gay community saw that 47:00 and said, "Well, great. Then we want equal 47:02 rights and we want the right to marry." But 47:05 again, putting sin back in its proper 47:08 place... We are all sinful, and we all 47:10 have issues that we're struggling with. Most 47:13 of them are usually related to sex. So, 47:16 when I look at 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and it 47:18 talks about all the abominations... Like, 47:20 man. It doesn't make me any better than 47:22 you, but it doesn't make you better than 47:24 me. We're all in this together, so, sorry. 47:27 Same-sex attraction IS a sin. That's what the 47:30 Bible says, but so is adultery, so is lust, 47:33 so is all the other things- - Fornication. - Yes! 47:35 All the other things that are going on in 47:36 the church, as well. - We create this hierarchy 47:38 of sins, so, homosexuality... "Oh, that's the worst 47:42 thing." We don't even look at lying, gossip, 47:46 and attitudes- covetousness and all that. So, we're 47:50 not even really looking at that. You know what 47:52 I mean? We just create this hierarchy. And the 47:54 bottom line is, we have to be able to 47:57 call sin what it is so that- it's like you 48:00 identify the problem so that you can identify 48:03 the solution. And Jesus is the solution! - Yep. 48:07 The only solution. - There are 3 sins we're 48:09 told that are especially offensive to God- 48:12 homosexuality NOT included. It's pride, 48:17 selfishness, and covetousness. I've 48:21 thought about this for a long time and I realized 48:23 why. These are the roots of all other sin. 48:27 These are the three sins that made a devil 48:30 out of Lucifer and broke the Savior's heart- 48:35 broke God's heart. So, you'll never kill a tree 48:39 by picking the fruit; you have to kill the 48:40 roots. Pride, selfishness, and covetousness are 48:43 sins that are not so easily detected in someone 48:46 else. Lucifer appeared to be working FOR 48:49 heaven and working FOR God while he was leading 48:53 a third of the angels of heaven into 48:54 apostasy. So, yes. Those are the three 48:57 especially offensive. - Wow. You talked about 49:01 your associate program. Explain that to us 49:05 a bit. - We have about a dozen now, I think. 49:09 Isn't it about 12 people that have filled out 49:13 applications to become a part of this ministry, 49:16 so we created an associate pathway, 49:19 because we don't want to just bring someone 49:21 in that has a testimony and they want to speak, 49:24 because we need to make sure they're well grounded. 49:26 Part of that pathway has 28 fundamental 49:35 beliefs! They need to go through that. We also 49:38 like for them to go through a program- 49:41 maybe like AFCOE or some Bible worker 49:43 training program where they learn to do public 49:46 speaking and evangelism and they're comfortable 49:48 and they're very well grounded in the gospel. 49:51 There are a number of other issues that we 49:55 need to make sure they are very, very clear 49:58 (related to our focus). So, we have people 50:03 going through this program, and some 50:06 are very close to coming on board. We're really 50:09 excited, because we have people from 50:11 different countries, different cultures, 50:13 different races, and different genders... 50:16 'Course, there are only two genders, 50:18 but I'm... - I'm glad you clarified that! 50:20 [laughter] - We need to clarify. Every gender 50:23 is from? So, we're looking at 50:27 a very diverse group developing- this ministry 50:33 becoming very diverse and very international. 50:35 - And we believe that that just defines the 50:37 ministry even better, because different aspects 50:40 of each person's testimony brings up 50:42 different aspects of the greatness of God and 50:46 in the restoration plan. So, for us, we really 50:49 are thrilled whenever we get to hear somebody 50:51 else's testimony or to work with somebody 50:53 who's brand new, coming into the ministry. 50:55 - And they're not just from the gay world, 50:58 as you mentioned. There are straight 51:01 people that have issues with sexuality and 51:04 so forth. So, we've got a broad spectrum 51:08 developing. - That's awesome. I know that 51:11 you are going to want to invite Coming Out 51:16 Ministries to come to your church or to 51:18 speak to your organization just to share what's 51:21 been going on with them and to share how 51:25 you, too, can overcome. Again, we're all in 51:30 this boat together; we're all sinners saved 51:32 by grace and we all have struggles. If we 51:37 don't, then we're not living on planet Earth. 51:39 We all have struggles. Let's take a look at 51:43 how you can get in touch with our brothers 51:47 here from Coming Out Ministries. 51:52 If you would like to find out more information 51:54 about Coming Out Ministries, visit their 51:56 website, ComingOutMinistries.org where you'll find DVDs, 52:01 books, and tracts. You'll also find access to 52:04 their special prayer line. That web address is 52:08 ComingOutMinistries.org. You may also call them 52:12 at area code (423) 248-5004, 52:18 or area code (870) 504-0173. 52:25 You may also write them at Coming Out Ministries 52:28 14914 North Liberty Road, Mount Vernon, 52:32 Ohio 43050. |
Revised 2021-08-16