Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY200033A
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00:01 As you're well aware,
00:03 we're living in unprecedented times. 00:05 Join us now for today's special program. 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:18 Mending broken people 00:23 I want to spend my life 00:29 Removing pain 00:34 Lord, let my words 00:39 Heal a heart that hurts 00:44 I want to spend my life 00:50 Mending broken people 00:55 I want to spend my life 01:00 Mending broken people 01:14 Hello, and welcome to another 3ABN Today program. 01:17 I'm Jason Bradley, and I'm so happy 01:19 that you could join us for this very important topic. 01:22 We're going to be discussing race, 01:24 unity and collaboration 01:26 between black and white conferences. 01:29 And with me to discuss 01:30 this we have Pastor David Klinedinst. 01:33 And you are the evangelism director 01:35 of the Chesapeake Conference 01:37 and also the AMPS co-chair, welcome. 01:40 And we have Pastor Bryan Mann, 01:42 who is the Kansas City Bethel 01:45 Seventh-day Adventist church pastor 01:47 and the AMPS co-chair. 01:50 Welcome, good to have you here. All right. 01:53 And we have Pastor Vic Van Shaik, did I say that? 01:56 Yes, you did. All right. All right. 01:58 And he's the Indiana Conference 02:00 of Seventh-day Adventist Church president 02:03 and the AMPS founder, one of the AMPS founders. 02:06 And we have Pastor Joseph 02:07 Ikner, Kansas City Central States Conference, 02:11 and AMPS founder. 02:14 All right, now we made it through the introductions 02:17 and now it's time to jump in a little bit 02:21 to the meat of the program. 02:23 What does AMPS stand for? 02:26 Anybody can answer me. 02:28 Are you looking at me, so I'll answer you. 02:30 AMPS stands for Adventist Ministers 02:32 and Pastors of St. Louis, 02:34 with ministers actually being the laypeople 02:36 in the churches of St. Louis, 02:38 and the pastors being are those who are employed 02:40 by the conference as pastors. 02:42 Okay. Okay. 02:43 And how did it come about? 02:45 Well, I guess that story would begin with 02:48 when I came there to serve as evangelist. 02:51 Technically I was 02:52 with the Iowa Missouri Conference. 02:54 I specifically remember there was one Sabbath, 02:57 when I was thinking, you know, I need to... 02:58 I need to go visit some of the other, 03:00 some other brothers and sisters within St. Louis. 03:03 Because a lot of times in a big city like St. Louis, 03:06 churches don't fellowship with each other, 03:08 especially if they're from different conferences. 03:10 And I had the privilege of going to the Berean Church 03:13 there in St. Louis. 03:14 So if anybody from Berean is watching, we miss you guys. 03:17 And being able to worship with them, 03:20 and met the pastor there. 03:22 Eventually I met Pastor Joe, 03:24 who became the pastor there at the Berean Church. 03:27 And that pretty much led 03:29 into a time of meeting together as pastors, 03:32 having collaboration together, 03:34 eventually went and worshipped the North side, 03:36 the largest church of Central States 03:38 that's in the St. Louis area. 03:40 And I met Pastor Bryan Mann, 03:42 and that just began to form relationship. 03:45 We all began meeting together, bonding with each other, 03:49 and bringing our churches together. 03:50 That's kind of the summary of AMPS. 03:52 Yes, yes, nice. 03:53 What would you say... 03:55 I'll give this to you, Pastor Mann. 03:57 What would you say is the importance 03:59 of that collaboration and that coming together? 04:02 Well, I think that, first of all, 04:04 it's actually the coming together. 04:07 Because as separate 04:09 you don't have really an understanding 04:12 of who each other is, what we are dealing with. 04:16 But being able to meet, come together, fellowship, 04:22 then all of a sudden, 04:23 we begin to look beyond 04:25 just the surface aspects of our ministry, 04:29 the surface aspects of our community. 04:31 And we had an opportunity 04:34 to really challenge each other 04:37 about some of the large issues of the day 04:40 and I begin to understand on a deeper level, 04:43 and so it all began with coming together. 04:46 Yes. 04:47 When you come together, 04:48 then all of a sudden you can have conversations 04:51 that you could not have before. 04:53 Yes, yes. And it removes... 04:55 It removes assumptions, 04:58 and you're actually able to have 05:00 those conversations as you said. 05:01 Pastor Vic, where do you come into play in all of this? 05:05 While I was pastoring the St. Louis Central Church, 05:07 which is downtown St. Louis, 05:09 and had the privilege of working 05:11 with my colleagues there in the city. 05:13 And when David was sharing some of the dreams 05:17 and desires of wanting to get everybody together, 05:20 it makes so much sense as why wouldn't 05:22 we want to do that? 05:23 These are my brothers, they're my, you know, 05:25 I want to become friends with them, 05:27 be able to spend time with them. 05:29 And I think the challenge 05:30 is when you are serving in a city 05:32 which has multiple conferences, is that we're all busy, 05:36 and we all have our different schedules 05:38 and different events that we have to go to 05:40 with our own conferences. 05:42 And there's not that crossover that naturally happens 05:45 when you work at the same conference. 05:46 So you have to be intentional. 05:48 And so it's like, why wouldn't we want to do this 05:51 and so I have really enjoyed my time, 05:54 being able to work and get to know these gentlemen 05:56 and spend time with them. 05:58 Not only in meetings but in their homes, 06:02 and we did techniques and, you know, 06:04 lots of different things together. 06:05 Yeah. 06:06 So your family's got the opportunity 06:08 to meet each other and all that. 06:10 Pastor Ikner, what about you? 06:12 So in Central States 06:13 we were already meeting together as pastors, 06:15 we had an organization called SLAM. 06:17 And we were already kind of 06:19 doing collaborative ministry among ourselves. 06:21 And I remember that 06:22 David set up a meeting to come by Bryan's house. 06:26 We didn't meet in the church. 06:27 We didn't meet in an office. 06:29 We met at Bryan's home, 06:31 and it was no conference initiative, 06:34 there was no one that was coming 06:35 and saying that we had to do this. 06:38 It was David saying, "Hey, you know what, 06:40 I've visited some of these churches. 06:41 I've been to Berean, I've been in North side, 06:44 I think that we can come together 06:45 and do ministry together." 06:48 And one of the opportunities 06:49 before us was equipping university. 06:51 And as we kind of sat and talked about 06:55 being able to do ministry together, 06:57 we kind of saw that, you know, we would be stronger together 07:01 than we were apart doing collaborative ministry 07:05 across conferences, 07:06 even though we were of different races, 07:09 would make us stronger in the area of St. Louis. 07:12 And we all serve the same God. 07:16 Absolutely. And the same mission too. 07:18 Same mission as well. 07:19 Very, very important. 07:21 Pastor Klinedinst, in your childhood, 07:24 did you ever visit other churches 07:26 like black churches, or... 07:28 You know, what's strange is I actually grew up in a very, 07:32 very conservative, predominantly Caucasian church. 07:35 Okay. 07:36 But yet I grew up in the inner city, 07:38 which meant I played ball, 07:40 and with all different races and nationalities. 07:42 So to me, it was just pretty natural to go 07:45 and to connect with other people. 07:47 I mean, especially in St. Louis, 07:49 two things that come to my mind is, you know, 07:51 a city of three million people and there's many cities 07:53 like that across North America. 07:55 How are we going to make an impact on a city 07:59 if we're all doing our own thing separate 08:01 from each other? 08:02 Yeah, we all have our own separate mission fields 08:05 and territories if you would. 08:07 But to be able to come together all races, 08:10 all churches and cultures, 08:12 what kind of an impact can that make 08:15 on a metropolitan city? 08:17 And especially when it comes to race relations, 08:19 if we're trying to show the community, 08:22 you know, a society, 08:23 "Hey, here's what needs to happen." 08:25 We have to model within the church. 08:26 Absolutely. 08:28 And that first starts by just coming together, 08:30 building relationships, 08:32 and then the Holy Spirit will take it from there. 08:34 Amen. Amen. 08:36 So we touched a little bit on some of the things 08:39 that you've done together in terms of picnics, 08:42 and what are some other activities 08:44 that have been done together. 08:46 Any of you can answer this? 08:48 Well, you know, I would say, 08:50 I think one of the most amazing things was 08:53 when we had joint prayer meeting together. 08:56 You know, it's hard to get people in this day 08:59 and age to come out to a prayer meeting. 09:01 But we invited all of our churches, 09:03 and I remember I think 09:04 it was our first joint prayer meeting 09:06 was at my church Berean. 09:07 And there were over 200 people 09:09 that were there from 09:10 different races and nationalities 09:12 and everyone was on their knees praying together. 09:15 And, you know, 09:16 it's something when you pray in your own church, right, 09:20 and it's just a few of you. 09:21 But it's powerful when the entire city 09:24 is coming together to pray for one mission, 09:27 for one purpose, and one goal, and it doesn't matter, 09:31 you know, what our nationalities 09:32 or backgrounds are. 09:34 Didn't matter what church we attend, 09:35 didn't matter what conference we're from. 09:36 We were all glad to be there seeking our same God 09:41 for the mission that He has given to us. 09:43 Amen. 09:44 We have pictures of that too, by the way. 09:46 Yes. 09:47 And I think another interesting experience 09:49 was at the end of the year, 09:51 we would schedule a time 09:52 when we come together for communion service, 09:54 a joint communion service, 09:55 and we would spread that out, 09:57 we would vary at times, 09:58 sometimes it was North side, 09:59 sometimes it was central 10:01 and I think maybe we did it at Berean as well. 10:03 But as we would go to the different churches, 10:05 there's something special and we all can come together 10:08 whatever race we may be, 10:09 whatever background we may be, 10:11 and be able to serve one another. 10:13 And it really binds your hearts together. 10:17 Because you know, Jesus is our model. 10:19 He's someone that brings us, He's the healing agent. 10:21 He's the one that works in our hearts. 10:23 So I think those communion services 10:25 and then the members be able to experience that 10:27 'cause they've never done communion 10:28 with maybe from someone 10:30 from a different conference before. 10:32 And to be able to share that experience, 10:34 I think was a very special time. 10:35 And washing feet together. And washing feet together. 10:37 That's beautiful. 10:38 Well, we have some pictures of people praying together 10:41 that we want to put up. 10:44 We have two of those right there now and where was that? 10:47 That I believe is at the St. Louis Central Church 10:50 where we had city wide prayer gatherings. 10:53 And so, you know, it wasn't just people up front 10:55 talking about prayer, 10:57 we actually took significant time 10:59 where people from different churches, 11:01 whether they're from the same conference 11:03 or a different conference came together to pray. 11:06 And I think we all agree, 11:08 we believe that was so powerful 11:09 because it was a movement led by the Holy Spirit. 11:13 And when people come together to pray 11:15 and you build those relationships, 11:18 it's amazing the kind of bonds that take place, 11:21 and then eventually you go from fellowshipping together. 11:23 That's the first part, but then we thought, 11:26 you know, we need to start doing 11:28 ministry together in the city. 11:30 And I believe that's where God takes it to another level. 11:32 Yes. 11:33 So did you have like a step by step type of thing 11:37 or did this just kind of come to this? 11:39 It evolved. Okay. 11:40 It evolved as we would meet, 11:43 we would talk about some of the needs 11:45 and what would be our next step 11:48 and it just became 11:50 in a grassroots organic movement 11:55 to help us navigate 12:00 in getting to know each other. 12:03 And I think for me, 12:05 when I look at all that AMPS is, 12:09 we're not talking about 12:11 changing a whole city or even all of the churches. 12:15 But I think each of us, we had the ability to talk 12:19 with individuals that felt 12:22 that God had moved and allow them 12:25 to make a connection with individuals 12:27 that they normally would not communicate with 12:31 or spend time with 12:33 and we begin to see each other as family 12:35 and that is so critical in spending the time together 12:40 so that we can break down some of the barriers 12:42 and the things that we don't understand 12:45 about each other. 12:47 We've got to spend, 12:48 we've got to take the time and invest. 12:52 It's not easy doing 12:54 the type of ministry that we did, 12:56 and with all of us having different churches, 13:00 we all had our own agendas, 13:02 we had the work that 13:04 we needed to do in our specific church. 13:06 But it's worth it to come together, 13:09 because we're preparing for a kingdom 13:12 and a kingdom is not just made up of that 13:15 particular congregation in that church. 13:18 So it's critical for us 13:21 to get together and to invest the time, 13:26 the effort, the commitment in bringing people together, 13:31 so that we can understand each other more. 13:33 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Go ahead. 13:34 Oh, no, I just going off what Bryan said, you know, 13:37 I think doing this provided 13:39 an opportunity to build the relationships 13:41 and that really does take time. 13:43 When you're in different venues, 13:44 different settings, when you're in pastors' homes, 13:47 you're at church, you're in meetings, 13:49 the more time that you spend together, 13:51 the more the trust builds, 13:53 the more the understanding builds, 13:55 you begin to listen better of one another. 13:58 I still remember the time we were at a picnic, 14:00 the pastors and our families were together. 14:02 And Bryan... 14:04 It just happen, it was just by chance. 14:06 We just started walking together. 14:08 And for about 20, 25 minutes 14:09 as we're just walking through the park, 14:11 he was sharing, I was sharing 14:12 some of the struggles of ministry. 14:14 That wouldn't have happened 14:15 if we weren't intentional in taking that time. 14:18 And so that just continued to build that relationship. 14:21 And I want to say, I felt like it was organic, 14:25 it was not forced. 14:28 And I think it's true 14:29 because God has made us a promise 14:31 that in 2 Chronicles 7:14, right? 14:34 "If My people will pray..." 14:35 We started with prayer, right? 14:37 "That he would begin to heal our land." 14:38 And so we had equipping university, 14:40 we had the joint prayer meetings, 14:42 we had the joint worship events together 14:45 where we came and we had AMPS Sabbaths 14:47 and those type of things. 14:48 But I think that when Michael Brown 14:51 was killed in Ferguson, 14:55 and that uproar broke out there, 14:58 it created an opportunity for us. 15:00 We could have shied away 15:02 because those conversations 15:03 sometimes are difficult to have. 15:06 And we knew we need to have that conversation 15:08 among our congregations and with our members. 15:11 But I remember us gathering together 15:13 in Bryan's office at North side, 15:15 you all remember that? 15:17 Yes. 15:18 And we just had a conversation and talked about 15:20 what it was like to be black in America 15:22 and listening to one another's stories 15:25 and talking about our experiences, 15:27 and being vulnerable and transparent 15:29 drew us closer together, 15:31 that created the opportunity for us 15:33 to be able to have that same type of ministry, 15:35 and to have an event that I think we can talk about, 15:38 you know, on race, and unity, 15:41 and healing, and reconciliation. 15:43 Yes. Yes. 15:44 And so I wanna, I want to add to that, 15:46 one of the things that made that conversation possible 15:48 is we had already built a relationship together. 15:51 We didn't come together because of something 15:53 that happened at St. Louis, 15:54 the spirit already lead in that. 15:56 And see, what sometimes maybe happens 15:58 now is people were forced to talk about race relations, 16:01 you have no relationship with each other or connection. 16:04 And that makes it much more difficult. 16:06 Yes. 16:07 But when you already have relationship 16:08 and you're coming together, 16:10 even if you don't see everything perfectly 16:12 the same way, 16:13 you've already got that bond of trust, 16:15 and that's a big deal, that's a big deal. 16:18 Yeah, that makes a huge difference. 16:19 And, Jason, I just want to kind of reiterate too 16:21 and it was already been mentioned that 16:22 this was more grassroots, it was organic, 16:25 because if it was conference driven, 16:27 you know, you come with it from a different perspective, 16:30 this is an expectation that our administrators have, 16:33 and maybe the relationships 16:34 would be a little bit more superficial, 16:36 because you're kind of brought together 16:38 because you've been asked to do that. 16:40 But when it happens organically 16:42 and it's something you just desire to want to do, 16:44 and be able to fellowship, 16:45 and build these friendships on the natural way, 16:48 that's the beauty of this, I think. 16:50 Yes. 16:51 It's like the difference between 16:53 being in school and having a group project 16:54 and then the teacher picking your partners 16:57 and all of that stuff, 16:58 as opposed to you getting to make the choice. 17:01 And it sounds like that made the difference, 17:04 and it's taking you guys through the distance. 17:08 What have you seen in terms of like testimonies, 17:13 as a result of bringing the conferences together? 17:18 I know one of the things that we constantly heard, 17:21 especially after the first equipping university event, 17:24 and for those who don't know, equipping university, 17:26 that was a lay training thing that we did in St. Louis, 17:30 and just brought all the churches together. 17:32 The very first one we did, 17:34 I can remember many of us pastors, 17:36 our members would say to us, 17:38 "You know what, we need to do this again, 17:39 we need to keep getting together like this." 17:41 This was something special, we felt God moving, 17:44 and they actually wanted to do it, 17:47 and then started developing relationships with each other. 17:49 So it went beyond, it started with the pastors, 17:52 we had to provide the leadership of us 17:54 coming together, but then we gave our churches 17:56 the opportunity to come together. 17:58 And again, that just took to a whole new level. 18:01 Yes. 18:02 You know, the thing is, is that 18:04 we just don't come together just to come together, 18:07 because ultimately the plan 18:09 is to be able to share the gospel with everyone. 18:12 And since we're doing urban ministry, 18:16 it's important for us to learn how to reach 18:19 everyone in our community, everyone in our city, 18:25 we need to be able to reach them 18:27 and not to look to someone else 18:29 to win someone that's living next door to me. 18:32 And so we came together 18:35 so that we could understand each other 18:37 and when difficult things happen, 18:39 like with a surrounding Mike Brown's death, 18:44 we would not have been able to navigate through that 18:48 without having come together before. 18:51 So that we had a relationship 18:53 because there was some very difficult conversations 18:57 that we had to have and so, 18:59 in regards to reaching out to our community, 19:04 we have to find a way again. 19:07 I go back again to say that we've got to come together 19:11 because until we develop 19:13 those relationships, close relationships, 19:16 we can't ask the hard questions, 19:18 and we will never be able to deal 19:20 with some of the difficulties that arise around us 19:25 unless we have the ability to know. 19:29 I know you're Christian, David, I know that he's a Christian. 19:32 And so, if that's his foundation, 19:35 if that's our foundation, 19:36 that we know each other that we're both Christians, 19:40 we can work from there. 19:41 Yeah, our identity is in Christ. 19:43 And if I could add, 19:45 I think the experienced that we had in St. Louis. 19:49 When I left St. Louis and came to Kansas City, 19:53 Bryan followed behind in Kansas City, Kansas, 19:55 I'm in Kansas City, Missouri. 19:57 It created the opportunity for us to do it again 20:00 and reduplicate it. 20:02 And so working with Shawnee Mission, 20:03 which is now Advent Health hospital in Kansas City. 20:07 We brought our conferences together, 20:10 Kansas, Nebraska, 20:11 Iowa, Missouri, and Central States, 20:13 we worshipped together for the first time ever, 20:17 where we all came together 20:19 as Central States Conference, 20:20 G. Alexander Gymnasium, 1,200 people, 20:24 1,200 Adventists came together black, white, 20:27 Hispanic, Mexican, Chinese, 20:32 people from every different nationality coming together. 20:34 And we did evangelism together some years ago 20:38 with It is Written with John Bradshaw, 20:40 and it was just a wonderful experience. 20:42 But I think the impetus, 20:44 the catalyst to drawing for that, 20:46 all started in St. Louis. 20:49 And so, you know, it gave us the ability 20:51 to not only just do it once, 20:53 but to continue to reduplicate it. 20:54 Yes. 20:56 And it's still happening in Kansas City today. 20:57 Yes. 20:59 You know, I think interesting too 21:00 at the church that I pastor, St. Louis Central, 21:01 is a very, very diverse church. 21:04 But many of the members just never had the opportunity 21:07 to be able to worship 21:08 and go into the other churches, 21:09 you know, for various reasons. 21:11 And so, one of the things that this provided is 21:13 for them to be able to be exposed 21:14 and build relationships outside of their own church. 21:17 And I saw, I heard several members say 21:19 how much they enjoyed getting to know 21:21 other people from other churches that... 21:24 in the same city, 21:25 Adventists sharing the same mission, 21:27 but it's never really spending that time together. 21:28 So joint communions, joint prayer meetings, 21:32 evangelistic meetings, 21:34 it really helped them to expose 21:36 to the broader Adventist community 21:38 and the strengths that come from that, 21:40 you know, the different worship styles, 21:42 different ways of thinking, 21:44 it really helped us to grow, I think spiritually. 21:48 I love that joint communion thing. 21:50 Were you going to say, pastor? 21:51 And even the pulpit swaps were powerful. 21:53 David came and he preached at Berean, 21:56 and I preached at Central and all of us 21:59 kind of intermingled at different churches 22:01 and just got to know, you know, each other. 22:04 And I think the powerful thing was that, 22:07 you know, we started with just being in relationship 22:09 with each other. 22:11 And then that led to ministry, 22:14 you know, and then from ministry, 22:15 it lead for all of our churches, 22:17 you know, being able to come together. 22:18 I think that's the blueprint. Yeah, yeah. 22:20 And that's how it is with Christ. 22:22 Like our relationship with Christ, 22:23 we have to start with the relationship. 22:25 You know, I think so often, you know, 22:28 people try and introduce people to tofu 22:30 and this and that, and all of this 22:33 and the health message and all of that. 22:36 But if you don't know the person or, you know, 22:39 the God that you're doing it for out of that relationship, 22:44 then it's just kind of rules 22:46 and not the relationship aspect. 22:48 I think that's very important. 22:51 You know, it's not a quick fix. Yes. 22:54 Getting to know each other and coming together 22:58 and having different events, it's not a quick fix. 23:01 We... 23:03 It takes a lot of effort, it takes commitment. 23:08 But when all of that effort 23:10 and that commitment is placed 23:16 with us knowing 23:18 or with us trying to bring 23:22 ourselves together to know Jesus Christ 23:25 and to share Jesus Christ, 23:27 then it becomes profitable, 23:31 and you start to see the fruit of that labor. 23:35 When Joe had mentioned 23:36 that 1,200 people came together, 23:40 those 1,200 people, they came together, 23:42 it was successful, 23:44 but there were a lot of conversations 23:46 out of that, there were, you know, 23:47 people that say, you know, they had different questions, 23:51 you know, they wondered about 23:54 why we had all of the people together 23:57 and so just having one huge event 24:02 and people saying, "Well, we had a lot of people out." 24:05 It did not do what... 24:08 It didn't take us to the end game. 24:10 Got you. 24:11 And the end game, you know, 24:13 I think we'll get there when we get to heaven. 24:16 But day by day, 24:18 we've got to keep developing those relationships, 24:21 meeting together so that a group of people 24:25 come together, five, or ten, or two, or three, 24:28 and then all of a sudden they begin to talk 24:30 and then it begins to spread, 24:33 and they understand that we're all the same. 24:36 We love the same God 24:38 and we've got to come together 24:40 so that we can win souls into God's kingdom. 24:43 Amen. Amen. 24:44 You know, one thing that was unique 24:46 or still is unique about St. Louis is actually... 24:48 It's a large city, 3.5 million people, 24:51 but there's three conferences and two unions. 24:53 And so sometimes structure 24:55 can just lead us to do our own thing and so, 25:00 but structure shouldn't stop us 25:02 from working together to spend time together. 25:05 And that's kind of the beauty of this, 25:07 even though there were three conferences, 25:08 we did different agendas, different schedules, 25:10 different camp meetings, and various things. 25:13 But pastors and members went beyond just the structure. 25:17 So that's not going to stop us. 25:18 We're going to spend time together, 25:20 fellowshipping together. 25:22 So there is no reason why... 25:23 Even though if you have two conferences, 25:25 three conferences, 25:26 there's no reason why we can't come together. 25:28 Absolutely. 25:29 And I know that we are running lower on time, 25:32 and you guys have to leave us 25:34 but we'll be joined by two other special guests 25:37 that we'll have in just a moment. 25:39 But before we do, I know that 25:41 you wanted to say one more thing, Pastor Ikner. 25:44 You know, and I would say 25:45 if we want change in our churches 25:47 and in our communities, 25:49 we can't wait 25:50 for the conferences to do that for us, 25:53 we can't wait for leadership, 25:54 it has to be a grass root effort. 25:57 And so I would say to our pastors, 25:58 I would say to our members, 26:00 this is the time to begin to have those conversations, 26:03 start meeting, start talking together, 26:05 start coming together, why not? 26:07 You know God loves diversity. 26:09 He created it. 26:11 And we're stronger together than we are apart. 26:13 Amen. Amen. 26:15 Thank you for your contributions. 26:17 We're going to be blessed 26:18 in song at this time by Kendol Bacchus, 26:20 and it is entitled "In it After All." 30:34 Thank you for that beautiful song, Kendol. 30:36 We are joined by Pastor Robb Long, 30:40 who's the Indiana Conference, 30:42 he's a pastor in the Indiana Conference, 30:44 evangelism director 30:45 of Carmel Seventh-day Adventist Church, 30:48 and AMPS founder. 30:50 And then we have, Elder Abraham Weekes 30:52 and the AMPS chairperson. 30:55 Welcome. Good to be here. 30:57 Good to have you guys here. 30:58 So I'm looking forward to hearing from you. 31:01 We've been talking about AMPS 31:04 and the different things that have been taking place 31:06 in terms of fellowship 31:07 and communion and all of these things. 31:10 But what has your experience been with AMPS? 31:14 Well, I came to St. Louis 31:16 and AMPS was already started 31:18 and I was already meeting, 31:19 so when I arrived to be pastor of evangelism 31:23 for the St. Louis Central, and Mid Rivers churches. 31:28 I'd heard about AMPS, 31:29 and so I just naturally started attending 31:32 those monthly meetings. 31:34 It wasn't required, you know, 31:36 wouldn't say this is some part of your job responsibility 31:39 here was totally optional. 31:42 But I liked what I heard, and I was happy to hear that 31:45 conferences where we're working together 31:48 and black and white pastors were coming together 31:51 and I wanted to be part of that, 31:52 so I began attending the monthly meetings, 31:56 participating in the outreach programs, 31:59 we did planning together. 32:01 You know, I think about our annual convocation 32:05 we had in the summertime 32:06 and we had to come together and talk about, 32:08 what's our theme going to be this year? 32:11 Who's going to be the speaker? 32:13 What are our breakout sessions going to look like? 32:15 What are we really trying to accomplish here? 32:17 And just getting the input, you know, 32:19 working through that together, 32:21 and then seeing it all come to fruition. 32:23 I mean, it was such a blessing to have those convocations, 32:27 like minicamp meetings, 32:29 and people from all over the city 32:30 coming together, 32:31 highlighted by great speakers, great music, 32:34 and it was a real high time in my experience 32:37 there in St. Louis was just those camp meetings 32:40 that were well planned and thought out together. 32:42 Amen. Elder Weekes, what about you? 32:44 Well, I'm coming 32:46 from the perspective of the layperson. 32:48 Okay. 32:49 Having been the beneficiary of the relationships developed 32:54 among the pastors and working through 32:57 the different programs that they have. 32:59 And one of the things that came to my mind was that 33:03 the practicalities of Adventist pastoral ministry, 33:08 you know, we move on every few years. 33:12 And I looked at this, 33:13 all the relationships that had been developed, 33:16 and the dynamic that that was had amongst this group, 33:21 the leadership group. 33:23 And I thought, "Well, what happens when they leave?" 33:26 And so I did ask that question 33:28 and talked a bit about getting laypeople 33:34 involved at every level of this program. 33:38 So I'm glad to see that has happened a bit, 33:43 needs to be more. 33:44 And in fact, when we get to the end, 33:46 we talk about some of the things 33:47 that anyone thinking about 33:49 pursuing this type of relationship. 33:52 That's one of the things I would add. 33:54 Absolutely, absolutely. 33:56 So I want to ask this question to the pastors. 34:00 One, how do you prepare your sermons? 34:03 And two, is there a difference 34:06 when you're speaking in another pulpit? 34:09 Let's say if you're white going to a black pulpit 34:12 or black going to the white church? 34:15 For me, it's no difference in preparing. 34:18 When I would preach at the Central States churches, 34:20 in Bryan's church or Joe's church, 34:22 I would love it because number one, 34:25 I'm normally loud anyway, 34:26 and I can be loud in their churches 34:29 and so I'd preach longer, and that's okay there. 34:32 And you're able to connect with the people 34:34 and then you learn new cultural terms. 34:36 You know, on a Caucasian culture, 34:38 it's "Can you say amen?" 34:41 Sometimes I'd be in African-American culture, 34:44 I learned new terms like 34:45 can I get a witness in the house 34:47 or things like that, 34:48 and you're able to take on just, you know, 34:50 some of the nuances, 34:51 as long as you do it in a genuine way. 34:52 Yes, yes. Pastor Mann? 34:54 And I think that that's the key, 34:57 being transparent, being genuine 35:01 But if you don't have the ability to understand 35:07 what that culture is like, you're going to be terrified. 35:10 I remember in school, when I was at Union College, 35:15 I was a, it was my first 35:17 Sabbath pastoring a church in a city 35:22 that only had one African-American 35:25 in the whole city. 35:26 And that African-American 35:28 was not at that church that day. 35:30 So I preached and I preached, 35:33 you're just so bombastic and everybody looked at me 35:38 and it was like, "Oh," 35:40 and I was thinking "Man, 35:41 they must think that I'm from Mars or something." 35:45 But when I came down 35:47 and I shook their hand at the door, 35:50 they were so appreciative of the message. 35:54 I wouldn't have known from their facial expressions. 35:58 But we became great friends, 36:02 it was an awesome experience. 36:04 And so the thing is, 36:06 is that we have to get to know each other. 36:08 So in preparing... 36:11 Just as David said, "You prepare, 36:14 because God is preparing you." 36:16 He knows what's going to be present on that day. 36:19 And so, you just have to be ready 36:21 and prepared to do 36:23 whatever it is that He wants you to do, 36:25 but getting to know the people, I think that is key. 36:30 When you're going to speak 36:32 to someone of a different culture, 36:34 don't just walk into the culture, 36:36 because you can say things that are offensive 36:38 and people say things 36:40 all the time that are offensive, 36:42 and they're like, "Well, what did I say?" 36:45 You gotta learn. Yes, absolutely. 36:47 What about you, Pastor Long? 36:49 Well, you know, there's a cultural difference. 36:51 And when it comes to the content of a message, 36:54 I think the content is the same. 36:56 And, in fact, that's the beauty of the Adventist message. 36:58 We're all united by the Three Angles' messages 37:00 and, you know, there's a commonality in 37:02 what we're preaching, you know, it's gonna be well received 37:05 but I always appreciate preaching 37:07 in African-American churches, 37:09 there's more enthusiasm, you know, 37:11 we'd like to hear amen as preachers, 37:12 we don't hear that a lot in the white churches. 37:16 So just getting that response, a friend of mine said, 37:19 you know, "In the black churches 37:20 if you don't have a good sermon, 37:22 they'd help you make one up along the way. 37:25 So, yes, I like that responsiveness 37:27 and the excitement. 37:29 And the other thing that has struck me 37:30 about the black churches that I've gone 37:32 and preached that is just the, 37:33 the way that pastors are really honored. 37:36 And I was presented with a gift, 37:38 and after the service, 37:40 you know, being at the fellowship meal, 37:42 having a special table there, and, you know, 37:44 it was just, I thought, 37:46 "Wow, they really honored the leadership." 37:48 And I appreciated that and learned from that. 37:51 Yes. Were you going to say? 37:53 No, I was just thinking, 37:55 I specifically remember for me a memory, 37:56 I'm sure you remember this. 37:58 Bryan and I did an evangelistically 37:59 together at his church, 38:01 and Joe was involved in that too. 38:03 And he had titled it "The Truth in Black and White." 38:09 So we did that together 38:10 and that's a memory 38:11 that I always have from being in St. Louis. 38:14 You know, he would always say that 38:16 he was ebony and I was ivory. 38:20 Yes, yes. 38:21 You did have St. Louis mission, 38:24 why don't you talk about that a little bit? 38:26 You're talking about the Lay Mission? 38:28 Yes, the Lay Mission. 38:29 Yeah, that was something 38:30 where we had put together a group, 38:33 a Lay Mission committee 38:35 which was one or two laypeople from each of the area churches. 38:39 And their job was to find one or two mission projects 38:43 that all the churches could get involved 38:45 in the city of St. Louis. 38:47 So that when that happened, you would see African-American 38:51 Adventists, Caucasian Adventists, 38:52 Korean, Hispanic, 38:54 European, all working together 38:56 in the streets of St. Louis 38:58 and whatever that mission project was. 39:00 And that really helped again to bring bonds together. 39:03 If we had time, we could share with you 39:05 what some of those mission projects were. 39:07 And I wish we had all the pictures of them. 39:09 Yes. 39:10 Now we do have some pictures though, 39:11 we still have some pictures 39:13 with Elder Wilson, and to touch on... 39:17 What was going on here? It looks like prayer. 39:20 That is the St. Louis mission rally. 39:22 That was one of our really big events 39:25 where one year we brought all the churches together, 39:28 it's like 15 or 16, churches in the metropolitan area, 39:32 and we actually had to rent 39:33 a large nondenominational church 39:35 to fit everyone. 39:36 And so everyone came together 39:38 for Friday night and Sabbath worship. 39:41 And that picture was a picture of all of us pastors, you know, 39:45 up on the stage also having a moment 39:47 of prayer together during that service. 39:49 Just casting the vision 39:51 to all the churches of St. Louis 39:53 of how we're collaborating together, 39:55 we're reaching the city together. 39:56 Yes. 39:57 What are some of the challenges 39:59 that you guys have faced in taking on this initiative? 40:04 Well, I think the challenge is just because it's already been, 40:06 you know, commented on that, pastors are busy, you know, 40:10 we have a lot going on just with our local church, 40:12 and then conference programs 40:14 that we're trying to engage 40:15 in with whatever conference we're part of. 40:17 So just finding the time 40:19 to do this type of thing can be a challenge. 40:23 But I think also that we need to realize that 40:26 even if we can't be together physically, 40:29 because of time constraints or whatever, 40:32 we really need to develop more of a concept I guess, 40:35 that we are all one church. 40:37 And even if I can't be at Bryan's evangelistic meetings, 40:41 those need to be my evangelistic meetings, 40:43 our evangelistic meetings, 40:44 and we need to have a real burden 40:47 that they'd be successful, you know, to pray for them, 40:49 to be interested in the outcome, rather than 40:51 "Oh, yeah, they're doing that over there 40:53 and we're doing this over here." 40:55 And, you know, we don't really all the time 40:57 have our mutual success in mind, 40:59 and I think that needs to change, 41:01 and I hope that will change. 41:02 And so we can start to see, 41:03 "That's our church over there doing that. 41:05 Those are our brothers doing that." 41:07 And we're going to rise and fall together. 41:10 So let's pray for each other, 41:11 let's be more concerned about the outcome 41:14 of what each of us are doing, 41:16 and share in the successes and celebrate those. 41:18 And we don't look at each other as competition, 41:21 churches being against churches, 41:22 at least not in St. Louis area. 41:23 Yes. 41:25 I think another one of the challenges 41:26 as Elder Weekes has spoken about is the fact 41:31 that Adventist ministers move from time to time, 41:35 and so if you don't have a strong lay component, 41:40 then that's going to... 41:42 You have times 41:43 where it may almost seem to die out. 41:48 But the AMPS, the reason that 41:52 we called it AMPS was because of the power, 41:56 AMPS has to do with electricity, 41:58 it has to do with power. 41:59 And that's what we're bringing to St. Louis. 42:01 It was the power of the gospel, 42:04 and the power of all of these churches 42:07 coming together doing what we can, 42:09 no one can do by themselves, 42:11 no one church can do that. 42:13 And so coming together 42:15 we have the ability to harness the power of 42:18 all of the community for particular projects 42:22 and then also to learn from each other. 42:25 But I would like for Elder Weekes to speak to this 42:29 because that challenge he has taken 42:31 on now being the current chair 42:34 of AMPS as a layperson. 42:38 So we have not only the challenge 42:40 of including more and more laypeople, 42:45 which is difficult in and of itself, 42:46 because you talk about pastors being busy. 42:48 You have laypeople living their lives 42:50 and asking them to tap into something 42:54 and add to their schedule, so to speak. 42:57 There is another challenge 42:59 I want to talk about and that is, 43:01 you know, you have the larger churches 43:03 in Central St. Louis, 43:05 but then you have other churches 43:07 that are kind of geographically on the periphery. 43:11 And these people want to participate. 43:13 And you want to include them, include them in a real way, 43:17 not just having them come in and visit the big church, 43:20 but sometimes taking some programs out to them. 43:23 So that they could truly feel included. 43:26 And so we we're trying to do that. 43:29 As many times we are limited on facilities 43:31 and that sort of thing, 43:33 but you really want to make sure 43:34 that they're included. 43:35 Another thing that we had at the beginning 43:37 and you did allude to it, 43:39 and that is that you had the Koreans, 43:42 and Spanish, and what have you, and so on. 43:45 And so the challenges that 43:47 each unit has within itself 43:50 and coming together in the larger unit. 43:54 Our Korean unit has dropped off 43:57 because a pastor moved on 43:59 and they don't have a replacement, 44:00 so examples, things like that. 44:02 Got you. Another thing... 44:03 I'm sorry, Bryan. Go ahead. 44:05 You know, we can become project oriented. 44:08 And that can happen in the church, 44:09 we got our programs going on, 44:11 and we get so consumed with putting the programs on 44:13 and all of that entails that we don't leave room 44:17 for the fellowship 44:19 and the relationship building among the members themselves. 44:22 And that can happen too, 44:24 if anybody wants to start an organization like this, 44:27 it can tend to sometimes become program based. 44:29 We had a lot of programs going on 44:30 and took time in preparation. 44:32 So I think it's important to keep in mind 44:34 that while the programs are great, 44:37 it's the bonding, it's the fellowship, 44:39 it's getting to know each other, 44:40 listening to each other, 44:42 appreciating our differences, where we come from, 44:45 that, if we can accomplish that, 44:47 that is going to be I think, in the eyes of heaven, 44:50 just as important as whatever programs 44:52 we happen to do. 44:53 But strangely enough, you know, 44:55 we're dealing with human beings and we build an expectancy, 45:00 a level of expectancy in people's minds 45:02 when we have these programs. 45:03 So these are platforms to come together. 45:08 And if you take away the platforms 45:10 and they get disappointed. 45:11 If you disappoint people, then you lower the energy 45:14 expectation as you go forward. 45:16 So there is the challenge of keeping the expectancy 45:21 going as you build new relationships. 45:25 It's sort of like repairing 45:28 and modifying a car while you're in the race. 45:33 When you look at AMPS, 45:35 and we go from church to church, 45:38 visit the different churches 45:41 and we talk about oneness, 45:44 being one church. 45:46 Now if you're husband and wife, 45:48 and husband and wife are together and, 45:51 but my wife dresses poorly, 45:54 and I dress very nice and neatly, 45:57 and up-to-date, but my wife, 46:01 and people are, "Aren't you all married?" 46:03 "Yeah." 46:04 But when we go to other churches, 46:08 we need to understand that there are some things 46:12 that other denominations are doing. 46:15 When they build a church, 46:17 everybody comes together and they build that church. 46:20 And so this church is just 46:23 like the church down the street, 46:26 it may not be cookie cutter, 46:28 but at the same time, 46:30 it is still a real nice facility. 46:33 And so when we, when we go 46:34 from one church in the inner city 46:37 into one that's maybe in a more affluent area, 46:43 if we're one church, 46:45 then all of these churches need to say, 46:47 "Hey, this is my church too." 46:50 And I don't like the way that this looks right here. 46:54 We can do better. 46:56 As unified, we can come together 47:00 and we can make this 47:02 one church so that 47:03 everyone knows that 47:05 we are putting effort 47:07 and putting our resources 47:10 so that we can build up this one church 47:13 because your church represents my church. 47:16 And if my church looks one way, 47:18 then your church should be representative as well. 47:22 And that's when the individual churches, 47:25 they begin to say, 47:27 "Hey, it's not just about coming together, 47:29 but it's about making each situation the best 47:33 so that we can win souls into God's kingdom." 47:36 Amen. I like that. 47:38 Now, if there's other cities 47:40 that want to get involved with AMPS, 47:42 how can they do that? 47:45 There's a few steps they can take, 47:47 you know, right now it starts by someone who has a vision, 47:50 you know, whether it's a pastor or a layperson, saying, 47:53 "I would love to see this happen in my conference 47:56 or in my metropolitan city." 47:57 And so, it simply starts by talking to the other pastors 48:01 or leaders of churches and saying, 48:04 "Could we start coming together 48:05 and begin meeting together on a monthly basis 48:08 and let it go from there," 48:09 but somebody's got to be willing to... 48:11 And the kind of the phrase I use is "Cross the line" 48:14 and that we use that term many times in a negative way, 48:17 I'm using it in a positive way, 48:19 cross the line and start visiting a church 48:21 of another conference, or another ethnicity, 48:23 or the pastors, and talk about coming together 48:27 and someone has got to start just by doing that 48:31 and being the leader, it can happen. 48:32 Yeah, so just bridge the divide. 48:34 And through technology... 48:36 If there's a group of people, or maybe just one person 48:40 who wants to start that in a particular city, 48:43 they can bring the pastors and the lay members 48:47 of AMPS together from St. Louis area, 48:50 you know, we're in all different places now, 48:52 but we can have a Zoom conference 48:54 or something of that 48:56 sort to help get them established, 49:00 and answer any questions, 49:01 and give them some guidance on how they can proceed. 49:05 Nice. 49:06 I think once we've had this experience of, 49:08 you know, racially integrated 49:10 and collaborative effort together, it's kind of... 49:13 It's in you then, and, you know, 49:15 that's one of the nice things 49:16 when we do move to different places, 49:18 which many of us have, 49:20 we're in different locations now. 49:21 But you kind of carry that with you. 49:23 And I know, you know, 49:24 it's mentioned what happened in Kansas City, 49:26 since Bryan and Joe were there, 49:29 and we saw the same thing happening in Indiana, 49:31 when we had the GC session, 49:33 you know, and looking forward to that. 49:35 And we saw the regional conference, 49:36 Lake Region, 49:38 and the Indiana Conference come together. 49:40 Joint meetings, planning, you know, 49:42 aware of what each other is doing as this big event 49:45 is coming up, praying together, 49:48 and just, you know, working together. 49:50 So that's the beauty of it 49:52 and I'm so thankful that 49:53 it started in St. Louis, I think St. Louis 49:56 is pointed to as a real model to follow. 50:00 And those of us that have come out of that 50:02 are carrying that with us wherever we go. 50:04 Yeah. 50:05 I was blown away by the concept of all of this. 50:08 I mean, when I heard about it, I was just like, 50:11 "Man, this is what we need to be doing. 50:13 This is excellent." 50:15 You know, and every so often 50:17 something happens on the national 50:19 or world scene that causes us to look at unity 50:23 and how we can come together and how we can work together. 50:27 Instead of reacting, 50:29 we need to be proactive, 50:31 we need to develop the relationships now 50:34 so that we will have foundation 50:36 to say that we've been doing this, 50:38 we've been working together 50:40 and move the people of God in the path 50:44 that God would have us to go. 50:46 Amen. 50:47 The big reason to get started in the first place is that 50:49 this is something that God wants. 50:52 If it's not something that God wants, 50:54 then there's no point in talking about it. 50:57 If it's something He wants, we take the first step, 50:59 He will bless, He would take us to the next step. 51:02 Not asking us to go to a full blown marriage, 51:05 let's start dating a little here. 51:07 I like that. 51:08 And this actually could be salvation. 51:10 Yes. Amen. 51:12 Because if I have issues with individuals 51:15 just because of the color of their skin 51:18 or background or whatever it is, 51:22 that could keep me from the kingdom. 51:25 And so we need to work these things out, 51:27 we need to really take a look at ourselves in the mirror, 51:31 and understand if we truly love everybody 51:35 that Jesus loves. 51:36 Amen. Amen. 51:37 Absolutely, and I love that you brought that out 51:40 because it could keep us out of heaven. 51:44 We're gonna go to the address role 51:46 because I want people to know how to get in touch with you, 51:48 and a short news break and we'll be right back. 51:52 For more information about Adventist Ministers 51:55 and Pastors of St. Louis, go to their website 51:58 at AdventistSaintLouis.com. 52:00 That's AdventistSaintLouis.com. 52:04 You may also call them at 402-206-7543. 52:10 Write to them at number 2 52:11 Parkrose Ct, Ballwin, Missouri 63011 52:16 or email them at AdventistSaintLouis7@gmail.com 52:22 That's AdventistSaintLouis7@gmail.com 52:27 And again, the website is AdventistSaintLouis.com. |
Revised 2020-09-04